An Unconventional Journey to Financial Freedom and Education Cost Hacking for Kids - Episode 69
Today, we have a special guest, Gerry Born, also known as The Millionaire Educator. Gerry has taught me so much about managing money, especially how teachers can grow their savings. He's used some smart tricks to save a lot of money even though he started with a small salary as a teacher. Gerry will talk about how he paid off debts, saved money, and even took mini-retirements to travel. He has a lot of great tips on how to use your money wisely and make it grow.
Resources Mentioned:
Sophia.org - Offers ACE (American Council on Education) accredited courses online, which are generally like college core courses and lower-level electives.
TEEX.org (Texas A&M Engineering Extension Service) - Provides continuing education courses, including cybersecurity courses, which are also ACE accredited.
Modern States - A platform designed to prepare students for CLEP (College Level Examination Program) tests, offering courses that can be credited towards college education.
Excelsior University - Noted for its flexibility in accepting credits from various alternative education sources and offering programs like a one-transcript service to consolidate credits from different programs.
Study.com - Potential resource for taking upper-level courses necessary for completing a degree.
Law Shelf - Source for upper-level courses.
About our guest:
Gerry Born and his wife are a retired teaching couple whose journey to financial independence began under challenging circumstances, grappling with $48,000 in student loan debt and unreliable cars in their early thirties. Their financial situation took a significant turn for the better during a five-year teaching stint in Saudi Arabia starting in 1996, where Gerry taught ESL while his wife completed her MBA. This period allowed them to eliminate their student loan debt and save $100,000, laying a solid financial foundation. Upon returning to the U.S. in December 2001, they initially planned to live and teach in Texas but ultimately settled in LaGrange, Georgia, where they lived for seven years. By 2023, despite no longer engaging in "real" work beyond substitute teaching, blogging, and a credit-tradeline side hustle, they managed to fully fund their HSA accounts and grow their wealth to over $2 million
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TRANSCRIPT:
Naseema: [00:00:00] All right, my financially intentional people. Listen, I couldn't be more excited for this episode. I am joined by Jerry Bourne, also known as Ed The Millionaire Educator. Anyway, he is 1 of the 1st people that I learned about in this fire space through my good friend, Jamila.
Sue front. And as soon as I heard his story, I was like, wow. Blown away and on so many levels. And Jesse, look, I was about to call you Jerry is the first person that I learned about optimizing 403 B's 457 contributions about taking mini retirements and traveling to Mexico, but also in college hacking as to the point where he has gotten his son,
happy birthday, who is actually his birthday today has not even graduated from high school, but has already completed 3 years at a university level. And so he has all the hacks around that. And so if you can't tell Jerry is, amazing [00:01:00] person has a wealth of knowledge, but just has opened my eyes up to so much.
And I know he'll open your eyes up to so much too. So welcome again, super honored to have you here.
Gerry Born: Thank you to see my. It's awesome to be here and sharing my story. I always like to talk about some of the things we've done just to give people some ideas that they can apply to their lives. So that's what I'm hoping you get some takeaways today,
Naseema: Definitely. And it's all about exposing you to things that you did know was possible. And what things you can pursue in your life. And as a parent hi, the things that you have been able to do for your son have been super amazing to me. But I want to back up, I want to talk about like just your journey in this personal finance space and where you started, because.
some people say is you're just a teacher, right? But you were able to do such amazing things. And I say that in jest, right? Because just a teacher is like just a nurse, right? But [00:02:00] you have done some amazing things. So share your story with us. Mm
Gerry Born: how to start. old basketball player and that was a big point part of my life. I went off to Davidson, played college basketball, and then I went to play in Argentina and El Salvador after Davidson, and from there I learned Spanish, so I really didn't know what I wanted to do.
I was a very average one who's, I can't lie. I was a below average student at Davidson. But I really took a liking to Spanish. And so next thing I'm a Spanish teacher. I had a late start to a career about 27 before I really started teaching full time. And one of the great twists of life, I could barely pass Spanish, but then I was teaching it.
So at any rate, back then we didn't make a lot of money in the state of Georgia teaching. I think my first year I made about 18, 000. And so I basically [00:03:00] decided I need to go off to grad school and improve my prospects. And I willed myself through an MBA down in Laredo, Texas, and a master's for Spanish and TESOL, teaching English as a second language in Hattiesburg, Mississippi at University of Southern Miss.
So from there, it was an unusual experience because now since I had two master's degrees, it seemed like anytime I did an interview, I was getting jobs, boom, instantly. So long story short, I go off to Saudi Arabia. Paid off about 48, 000 of student loan debt for my wife and I, cause we amassed those during our graduate school and saved about a hundred thousand dollars in Saudi Arabia over five and a half years, 9 11 happened and I realized it's time to come home.
And when I came back to the States, I had no debt and a hundred thousand dollars. And I thought I was like a 1% er, because I'd never experienced being up financially. Like. And then from there it [00:04:00] got my story, that's pretty cool. And I'm glad I did all that, but it's so far removed.
I hardly remember it, but it got really interesting around 2003 as I started teaching public school in LaGrange, Georgia, and this is where I learned about a 403B and eventually a 457. And what I learned is, they're generally variable amenity contracts, as we talked about, and they're very expensive.
So then I was just trying to figure out how do I make these things work to my benefit. And from there I just started from 2003, from that year forward, my wife and I always maxed out our IRAs and our 403B. The least we saved during those years when we were working was 30, 000. And the most we saved along that journey was 130, 000.
As teachers and I hate to admit this, but like my side hustle as a blogger, it's it's not very lucrative. Some of you[00:05:00]
Naseema: can you imagine?
Gerry Born: yeah, some of you bloggers out there know what I'm talking about. It was basically what I like to use the phrase hardcore savings. I, we always had a commitment to saving in our retirement accounts.
Because it provides a double whammy. First, it's money on your side of the ledger. This is money in your account, but it reduces your taxable income. So many years, my wife and I paid a thousand dollars in federal income tax or less. Because we were able to reduce our income so much.
Naseema: But you're saying you maxed out those accounts and but like you're maxing those accounts out on a teacher's salary. How much were you guys making at that time?
Gerry Born: Yeah, let's see. I guess about our third year at LaGrange High School, my wife and I realized we could get a pay bump if we did our next degree. We already had master's degrees. So we did something that's called a specialist degree, which was, essentially nine more courses and it [00:06:00] wasn't hard to do.
We did it. And that got us 6, 000 more each. So eventually we were making, let's see, my, our first year, I remember we made 85, 000, then my wife's certification was legitimate. She had a regular certificate. So it wasn't long before we got to a hundred thousand. Let's say you say 40, 000, but you're making a hundred.
They'll, then you're working with 60 and we're living in South Georgia, pretty low cost area of living as compared to other parts of the States. So it never felt. Like it was very difficult to do.
Naseema: Is that a hundred thousand dollars each or,
Gerry Born: no, combined,
combined.
Naseema: Combined. Okay. , just,
Gerry Born: yeah.
Naseema: just wanted to clarify because they're like, they're paying their teachers in Georgia. A hundred thousand dollars a year. No.
Gerry Born: no, and the pay scale is not bad in Georgia. And my wife and I are, the only thing we didn't have was the PhD, but I think the last year I taught, I made 78, 000 and that was like [00:07:00] 20, 000. I believe is my last year teaching. And my wife's got a similar thing because in a lot of times they'll give you stipends and things that you, some people won't take them, but we would pretty much take anything that came our way because we had a plan for the money.
it it wasn't X, like I said, we weren't going to happy hour and just drinking it away or, wasting it, it always had a, we had a job for our money always.
Naseema: So what was the goal with the way that you guys were saving? Like you had a plan for the money, but what was the ultimate goal? What were you guys thinking you would do with all these savings?
Gerry Born: This is pre fire and I can't really say there was a goal, but I guess at some point about the second or third year at LaGrange, I think our money was almost like 300, 000, our net worth, and I'm thinking, wait, I've done so many things financially wrong in my life, super late start took on [00:08:00] student loan debt, and we weren't up to zero till 33 and 31.
But. My wife and I, but here I am looking, I'm like 40 years old and I have 300, 000 and I thought, wait, this can't be true because heard the old saying, we're all poor as teachers, right? And that's the vibe in the teacher's lounge. And so at that point, I was telling my wife, you know what, we just need to keep maxing these accounts out and see what happens.
And we did. And then, next thing, 400, 500, 000. And I had no real end game, it's, I think I heard Justin McCurry say it's okay to save money because you'll figure out what to do with it later. And you don't really necessarily have, yeah, it's just, I just noticed I stopped worrying about money as much because I had space and we'd also cultivated a very nice and enjoyable frugal lifestyle that we liked.
So it was very liberating. Yeah, as far as an ultimate goal, no. I guess at [00:09:00] that point we started thinking it would be cool to be a millionaire, just say you achieved
that, but, and then when you get to half million, you realize if you understand how money compounds, that's not some pipe dream.
That is certainly doable at that point.
Naseema: Oh yes. Yes. So I just wanted to go back a little bit. I know this is not really part of the main story that you shared, but I thought it was very interesting about you deciding to take time and go to Saudi Arabia. You and your wife can you talk about why you made that decision?
Like how, where you were working and how you were able to meet all those financial goals that you met going there.
Gerry Born: Yeah. I remember very clearly there was an ad in an educational publication that had jobs and it was like a job, I think it was Syracuse university. And it was paying 28, 000 to be an ESL teacher. And you've got the prestige of being at Syracuse. And someone wrote something in a chat room, said [00:10:00] 28, 000 for winter and upstate New York with their taxes.
He said, no, thank you. And someone said what do you propose? And he says I make 40, 000 tax free in Saudi Arabia. And as soon as I saw that, 40, 000, but this is, we're talking 1996, 97, that, that
was an impossible dream as an educator in Georgia, at least, and so I thought I'll try that and.
I actually tracked the guy down. He gave me the company, which was Booz Allen and Hamilton and I sent a
Naseema: Uhhuh.
Gerry Born: in. And so anyway, my wife and I take a vacation in Mexico. We do the old bus trip all across Mexico. Awesome.
I recommend it to everybody and I get back and I have one of those old answer machines and there's messages and I play and I can barely hear it.
I was offered to, to come in and interview. And DC, and they flew me there to Washington, DC business class, put me up in a nice place. And
Naseema: Oh,
Gerry Born: yeah. yeah. And then it was like, it was the [00:11:00] easiest interview I ever had. It's they just, they saw my degrees and I'd been teaching at the university, teaching ESL, making about 17 bucks an hour.
And and it worked out. And so I got to Saudi and, it was big cultural adjustment. And it's like most jobs, you go to your job, you're busy working, you get home, you take a swim in the pool, lift some weights. Had cable TV and stuff like that.
And I, a few years later, we actually got internet. So that wasn't there at the time. So you felt a little cut off, it was worth the sacrifice. To take care of the debt and then start building a financial base, that's why I'll hoofs as it's hustle season.
The couple out of Chicago their name is casing us on their show years ago. But I really liked the way he always said, yeah, everybody's got to go through their hustle season. That was mine, getting that graduate work done and putting my head down and paying off some debt. And future you will appreciate that.
Naseema: Definitely. So it was just you working, your wife wasn't working there during that time.
Gerry Born: She got there about year three and she [00:12:00] had, she was, I would say underemployed. She worked at an international school there and I would, we used her salary pretty much to cover groceries. And like eating out. And and then when we got back to the States and she was actually working full time, it was, wow, two teacher salaries.
When you're going from one salary primarily to two, that's huge upgrade.
Naseema: Okay, you got back to the stage, you paid off your day. You started saving all this money. You're accumulating all this money. 1 of the things that I learned from you is that okay. So you have the 403 B, which if you guys don't know that this is like the 401k, but for government. Entities, teachers, all these kind of things.
I have a 403b as a nurse, just because of the way that my hospital is categorized. But then you have this 457 as well, which is deferred compensation. And if you don't know, you can have the same contribution limits as a 401k and a 403b, but you also have that in a 457. so you guys were maxing out both of those accounts.
But what I learned that [00:13:00] was very interesting for you is that. You funded those accounts, but you never invested the money in your 4 57. Right?
Gerry Born: I, no, I did not. And the reason being is, I don't know, maybe I'm a jerk, but I just hated these plans, the fact that, teacher plans have an average expense of 2. 25%. And no, I just couldn't do it. So I would just park my money there, take my chances with inflation, which was much lower than, and that's probably getting two to 3 percent return.
But as you probably remember, I'm famous for quitting jobs. I, I would, yeah. So what I figured out I could do is I had my epiphany at LaGrange about year seven. I went into mad scientist mode and crafted a plan to where. We would fund our 457 as much as we could quit our jobs at the end of May and take new jobs.
And so what ended up happening is when we got these jobs. We were [00:14:00] able to roll our money from our old jobs to our IRA accounts at Vanguard. And then that meant our 457 money was available to be used as regular income without penalty. That's a very key point of this whole maneuver
Naseema: Yes.
Gerry Born: that that's why the 457 is a magical account to me.
I call it a freedom fund because if, as long as you separate service, you can access that money without penalty. Bear in mind, it still comes in as taxable income, but what my wife and I used it for is when we took our new job here in Eccles County, where we currently live. We the first time through here in Eccles County, we took 30, 000 a year from our previous 457 accounts while we were maxing out everything here.
And that's when we really were able to hit fast forward on our wealth building journey, because When you are maxing out your accounts, we [00:15:00] were doing 403 B, 457 IRAs for both of us as six accounts and eventually HSA accounts.
Naseema: Mm-Hmm.
Gerry Born: that really was nice to hit the maximum amount on all those.
I think the lowest we made those years was or the lowest we saved started about 2010 was 76, 000. We were 76, 76, 78. And then from there, the contribution limits went up. So anytime we've worked since then, we've just gone for the max. And so that has led to me strategically quitting about every second or third year from jobs.
And I'm very open with principals. they know I'm probably going to do it when I take the job. And I have one principal tell me, he goes, man, I admire your honesty and I honor my contract. I teach as best I can. I have good rapport with the students. I coach some sports, but about year three, I'm ready to [00:16:00] move on.
and, uh, one, it allows me to move my money to, it allows me to access 457 accounts and three, it lets us build in adventures. So
Naseema: Mm-Hmm.
Gerry Born: I guess this is a good segue. And what I mean by that is. For example, in 2014, my wife and I both did not teach for a whole year. And we spent six weeks in Mexico, in Cancun, Mexico, and we took our son down.
Actually it was, yeah, it was 10 years ago today. It was his birthday. He'd never been in a plane. He'd never been to Mexico. He's eight years old and it was a big deal to him. And we did six weeks there, got a month long Airbnb, and we went to Merida and various places in the Yucatan.
And then we came back and then we talked two years. And then from there we took two years off and then we came back and talked three years. And now my wife she's in the middle of her, she's three and a half years without working and I'm two and a half years without working.
And I'm [00:17:00] 60 now. So. Thank God JL Collins in this space, or I would be the oldest fogey among the fire adherence. So thank you. Thank you. JL
Naseema: like to call you OGs,
Gerry Born: Yeah, exactly.
Naseema: That's so cool. Yeah.
Gerry Born: well, I've thought about that. I consider myself a fire adherent because I, I didn't know what I was doing, but really it was some of those techniques that they used. But I feel like I've gotta proselytize and I've got the zeal for the subject still, because let's face it, peak fire is over.
But now everybody seems to be dumping on fire and it's irrational and you can't do it. And I'm like, I don't agree with that at all.
There's
You can do still.
Naseema: It's levels is levels, but I think you have exemplified. All of those things, like the mini retirements, the quitting, like the not so quiet quitting listen, I'm going to shift this job. I'm strategically going to move my money. And there's some things I want to talk about in that, but I, and the [00:18:00] coast fire thing, like you guys haven't worked in the last couple of years.
I love that. Like you're in your retirement accounts. I'm sure are in the seven figures now
Gerry Born: Yeah.
Naseema: after.
Gerry Born: Yeah. They're not eight figures, but they're yeah. We, we, I think we hit the million million dollar mark in September of 2016 and it's been bumpy. But since then we worked, my wife worked two full years and I worked three full years. And we maxed all that. So it's just chugging along and the way we live, I'm not really worried about money so much, unless there's like a cataclysmic event.
I have no control over that either.
Naseema: So let me ask, I know you didn't invest in your 457 accounts. You just kept those money in the in the savings account portion of the retirement fund. But did you invest any of that money in your four Oh three B? Cause I know that you rolled it out and put it into Vanguard where you can get the [00:19:00] low cost index funds.
But was there any point that you invested that money? Mm hmm. Mm
Gerry Born: no, I did not. I did not invest in the annuity product. I just kept it there. And we always, oh let me go back at Lagrange high. I was the squeaky wheel who got Vanguard added to the four Oh three B. Yeah, that helped. And also got Teacref there. But then they were revamping the provider list because there was all this IRS harmonization, I guess you would call it about 2009.
And I realized, Oh, we're going to get stuck with one of these crap products. And that's what I just said. You know what? I'm just going to quit and take the ball and go play at another court. And I did that and I was on a committee and, that was a real eye opener, you see how committees work and real change isn't going to happen, sometimes you just got to rip the bandaid off and do what's best for you.
And I really I like LaGrange, I do, and a lot of fine people there, but I was just like, when things are going at an incremental [00:20:00] pace and there are people that have a vested interest in keeping it at an incremental pace. Namely the retirement plan providers. They don't want radical change.
That's just going to threaten their gravy train. So I just started taking more of a mercenary approach and I would go teach those periods and make it work for me as best I could.
Naseema: I like that. And I had Nancy back at E on this podcast a few years ago, and I don't know if you know who she is, but she was also a teacher that realized that the world three B plans offered, especially in a school systems were totally jacked up high fees. Those annuity products, like nothing that you would want to invest in.
And it's very unique. So four or three B's. are like 401ks except they're not as regulated and it's a wild, wild west of what they offer. So you usually have somebody, a friend of a friend come in the staff room and they're offering these products, but there's no incentive for them to offer like low cost index funds because in the [00:21:00] back end, they're not generating the revenue that they would, if they offered you these experiences.
With these high fees and because it's not heavily regulated, they do. And because people don't typically know that there's other things out there and to speak up, they don't. And so through her, I learned that you could petition your institution. To hire another financial firm to manage the company's retirement plans.
And she's a great resource to birth four or three Bs. And I forgot what her website was, but that's like her whole mission is to eradicate all these fees and a lot of the corrupt things that are happening in. And it's crazy because it's teachers and you're super vulnerable and you're put into these plans that aren't beneficial.
Gerry Born: There's been some reform here in Georgia and the district I last taught at Eccles County Schools as a part of this investment consortium. Now there's an excellent plan, but that plan just started in September of 2020, 2023. So I'm not [00:22:00] waiting around for change like that. You see what I'm saying?
And there are some people that have, they want to reform things. I'm not that guy. I'm too old, too long in the tooth to do that. And, uh, the, another thing I'd like to add is the 457, generally it's offered by the same it'll generally, there'll be one in your district, but it's the same type of area, no annuity plan.
So you just gotta be aware that that's what you're going to be dealing with and make adjustments for you.
Naseema: like that. You was like, yeah, I'm not gonna sit around. I like the mercenary approach.
Gerry Born: Sometimes I go like everybody's got a split personality and I've just come to the conclusion that there is a set plan for you as a citizen of this country and probably most countries. And if you just go down that traditional plan, that it's there for you.
It's how you're going to pay taxes. You'll be in social security. You're the last person considered in that default plan. So you need to have your own plan [00:23:00] that's crafted to you for your financial success. And that's essentially what my wife and I did. We rejected the traditional and we just took some radical steps.
Weren't that radical and they weren't that hard to do, I'm in the double comma club by doing a few changes.
Naseema: it's radical because it's just not the norm. and what people think is to get to that place, they have to do these incredible things or they have to have these windfalls. And it's really not that hard. It's really about making a few adjustments. And actually just deciding I'm not about to be a part of this.
I'm not about to stick around and wait till you guys change your retirement plan administrators. I'm not about to do that. I'm going to do what's best for me. I'm going to quit every two years. I'm going to move my money. I'm going to invest where I know that I'm going to get the highest gains. And that's what we're going to do.
So I love that. One more thing I want to clarify about this, and then we're going to talk about your son and education and all of that, But you said that you took that 457 [00:24:00] money and took 30, 000 of that. That 30, 000 is what you and your wife can live off of in a year.
Gerry Born: Let's see, in 2013, we started a 72 T I don't know if you're familiar with that. Basically we took we took our IRAs and we took distributions every year. Just like you take an annuity payment. So the thing, if you do that is you have to take that same amount until you reach a 59 and a half.
So we just we ended up taking 18, 000 from our IRAs combined. And then we had that 30, 000 coming out and, 48, 000, that's more than enough to live on here in South Georgia. And, our, we were renting a house at the time and it was, the payment was 750 bucks. For a three, two brick ranch.
Yeah. It's a different world in other parts. The house I'm living in right now, three, two brick ranch. I paid 68, 000 for it. One family owned it. Yeah.
Naseema: Okay. I'm in Northern [00:25:00] California. Like those numbers to me just seem like fairy tales. I don't understand. It's a whole different world. Wow.
Gerry Born: mean, moving here was a geo arbitrage play because it is low cost of living. But we're less than two hours from Jacksonville beaches. About two and a half or maybe three to the the, the, Panama city area. Those are nice beach areas.
But, um, we don't have to worry too much about hurricanes. We did have one come through here though, about a few months ago, but, yeah, there's always an option, right? There's always an angle and I've looked at a lot of those things and this turned out to be a super set up for us because we did come back to Eccles County.
So my son could go to school here. He did 7th grade through 12th grade here. And then, of course, we got as fate would have it. We got picked up right then to teach. So we lived a hundred yards from the school. And so we just, all three of us would walk down to the school and, walk back, [00:26:00] I hardly ever drove to my job, I didn't ride a bike, I just walked.
So yeah, it was a lot of fun, eat that Mr. Money mustache, I don't bike, I just walk to work.
Naseema: Oh my God. I love it. And that's totally inside fire thing. Like he's all about the biking to work.
Gerry Born: Oh yeah.
Naseema: So I love that. Okay. So let's transition into talking about your son. And I just learned about a year ago, like what you were able to do to help accelerate your son's path. Through college while he's in high school.
And then you also did some of these things as well to test it out. Walk us through that. All right. I'm just in amazing. He'll
Gerry Born: Yeah, so if you're listening to me and you're starting to think this guy's a little crazy, I'm going to confirm it with this next story. So I'm going to blame it on the the quarantine. We're all sitting at home, and everyone's bouncing off the walls. And we thank God we saw the internet and I'm poking around and I found [00:27:00] something.
I've always been interested in higher ed alternatives. Because I just think higher ed is so ridiculously expensive. And I came across something called sophia. org S O P H I A. And basically these are what they call ACE courses, American Council on Education. And I had no idea that there was an organization out there that sets the curriculum for a college course, say intro to psychology.
And if you follow that. And make a course, they will either approve it or not. So what Sophia does is basically offer a ton of online ACE courses and they tend to be generally like your college core, your first two years of college and like lower level electives. So anyway, I opened one up cause it was free during the pandemic.
And I thought it was ancient Greek philosophers. I thought I've never taken that. Let's see what that's like. And I was learning the platform and then I took a test and [00:28:00] next thing I hit enter and it said three credits. And then I signed up for another course and some things I didn't have on a transcript anywhere.
And, and then I realized, wow, this is a great opportunity. And so I, like a lot of us, I'm a kind of a goal setter. I said let me try to see what I can do. Can I get 10 courses in a month? Because 10 times three is 30. That's 30 hours. That's one year of college. I did that. And then I did it again the next month.
So I did end up doing like 68 credit hours in two months
Naseema: So you did two years of college in two months for free.
Gerry Born: for free. Yes And about that same time I realized my son's sitting here You know, he was still in the gaming phase and he could wait, teens can waste their life online So I came up with a grand plan. I said hey bruce, you know if i'll give you 25 bucks For [00:29:00] every one of these courses you finish and they're all pass fail.
They're all open notes and he's a smart kid and he's a good, he's a good reader. That's his probably his greatest strength and he can really re he can really find stuff in a PDF file. So long story short, he ended up doing I think 45 hours. He got a year and a half of college. And he thought he was getting over on me because I was paying 25.
Joke's on you, Bruce. Happy birthday, by the way.
Naseema: So you Bruce, you know how much college cost?
Gerry Born: Yeah. So from there, I found some other things like T text. org, T E E X. org. And that's like a continuing ed program with Texas A& M for engineers. And I took some cybersecurity courses there, which was like a good, Review on computers and just being safe online. But that's 13 credit hours for free.
And then the last thing I stumbled across was modern States, which is a program that will get [00:30:00] you prepared to do CLEP test. And I had taken a CLEP test years ago, actually for my certification, I had to get some credits. So I did personal finance through actually that was a Dante's test. But anyway, Similar tests.
And so once again, the crazy man Jean kicked in and I started doing some of those tests and I ended up getting, I think 81 credit hours through CLEP. And I am going to say the one test on there that was miraculous. I don't know how I did it, but I scored a 50, 50 is the minimal passing score on German.
And that was the highlight of the whole experience, that gave me six credit hours. And I wrote a blog post called back to school, five, 5. 5 years of college in five months for 714. My little experiment ended up being five and a half years of college for 714.
Now, could I get a degree [00:31:00] from that? No, because I still don't have like my upper level, like the 30 hours for that. If I really wanted to, I probably could. But I don't feel like I, I've already got all these degrees. and then last thing I'll mention here is you'll like this. I don't know if I haven't really written about this.
Maybe you've heard me talk about somewhere, but I'm actually doing my doctorate in finance right now online. I know I'm retired. I'm not planning on working anymore. I needed a, I needed a project to do while my son was finishing up his last year of school. So last February, I jumped in a program in Mexico and it's an online program, doctorate in finance.
It's accredited in Mexico. My teachers have been excellent. I've been pleasantly surprised. I didn't know what to expect from an online program, but the kicker is it's 2, 000 total, my whole tuition for my doctorate.
Naseema: Mind blown. Totally.
Gerry Born: I'll be done in June. It was
[00:32:00] like a 17 month program. We do one course a month.
I, I can do that. It's one course. I just, so yeah, I'm always, experimenting with something. And but this is my last, I think I'm not going to do anything after this, I don't think, you
Naseema: So you say, so you say, I don't believe it, but can you explain to us? What the cleft testing is and how that works. And how it's going to work for your son.
Gerry Born: Yeah I believe the acronym stands for College Level Examination Program. So it's basically a test you take, and it's multiple choice, generally. And it's a pass fail option if you score, it's, 80 is a perfect score, 50 is the minimal passing score. So if you score a 50, you get the credit. And the test can be worth from 3 credits all the way up to 12.
I did take the Spanish language test being that I'm a Spanish teacher and that had a little essay component in it. And but [00:33:00] I got 12 credit hours for that. I did. I took the French one. I got nine credit hours and please don't speak to me in French. I'm horrible, but I can, I knew how to take the test and I got the German.
So that right there was what was that? 27 credit hours. In language just from three tests. So yeah, that was, those were free as well. Modern States is an excellent option. I highly recommend it for more like adult learners that have a lot of experiential knowledge. Like my son has taken a few of those and he finds them difficult.
He hasn't had any success with those yet, but I would say, people who go back to school and looking to get some credits rolling pretty quickly, that's a good option.
Naseema: But where is it? Where is he taking his testing? I know he is now had completed 3 years of university courses. So what route did he take?
Gerry Born: Yes, he did. Sophia did that and he did the text. org. And he also did what is it called? CSM. It's [00:34:00] like a math course. It's more like a quantitative reasoning course and it's 39 bucks. So he's, those are the three sources he's used and he did get a few ACE courses at another source that's no longer open, but we have sent all his credits to a university in New York.
Excelsior University. They have something called a one transcript program where you can consolidate your credits. And sometime next year, he's going to apply and to formally do his bachelor's in probably liberal arts, just a generic degree. And then from there he'll go to grad school. He's looking at either like an MBA or a master's in education.
And
Naseema: So he'll go to assess your university to just do those higher level. That was last year classes, right?
Gerry Born: yeah, he will technically only have to take seven hours there. Like a and it, yes, there's like a capstone course they call it cornerstone, like when you enter and there's like a [00:35:00] informational literacy. But there's another source where he can take some upper level courses.
We're looking at something like study. com law shelf. These are some options that have some upper level things, but we just wanted to get a score done and some electives. And you know how it is. You probably want to have some extra hours because anytime you're dealing with a university advisor, they're like, Oh, you're short here or there.
You want to, if the degree is 120, you probably want to show them 135 or 140. Okay. And that's not hard to do online. No,
Naseema: So how much will he spend just in that senior year? Do you, are you estimating?
Gerry Born: let's see. Yeah, let's see. Thank God I have some 529 money for that. But,
I, I would imagine it's study. com maybe about, I'll say 1, 500. And then I'm planning on about 3, 500 at Excelsior. So what does that put us at? 5, 000. So let's round up, we'll say 6, [00:36:00] 000, and the money, I'm so old, I remember 6, 000 was a year's tuition, but the thing is it gets him his degree, but also it saves him a lot of time and then he can use his energy elsewhere, I just think a lot of times people spend a lot of time chasing credits.
From things they've already taken and from high school, the freshman year on up, there's, there's a big problem to me in, in university system. I think it's highly redundant between your 9th grade year in high school and your sophomore year in college. And everyone who's been to college tells me the same thing, and this Sophia and these options allow like a run around that.
Naseema: Mm-Hmm.
Gerry Born: but I will say you need to be aware that these courses, these ACE courses are not going to be accepted at all universities, right? Because it cuts into the, the their, their, their financial mix. You need to do something called university shopping, where you go out and look at the universities that will take your [00:37:00] credits.
And it's very easy to do. Go to Sophia. org and it says, our university partners, you can look through there and there are a number of options, but I just think Excelsior is super flexible and it's accredited and they have a long history of working with alternative education plans. Could I add one thing here real quick?
Naseema: Go ahead.
Gerry Born: Yeah, I just wanted to say, and think about this going forward, we've all been conditioned to fund 529 plans and I funded from day one, my ed savings account at Vanguard, I'm grandfathered in that plan. And so now I'm sitting on this big, it's not six figures, but it's not far.
All for, and it's earmarked for university and I don't plan on using it for university, not for my son. So take that with a grain of salt as everyone's telling you the importance. Yeah, you might use it for that, but at the same time you might be feeding the monster too. You just allow these tuition rates to keep going up and up because we [00:38:00] keep parking money for it.
I'm philosophically opposed to that at this point in my life.
Naseema: And you know what, this is the only part that we don't agree on because I actually put a lot of money into my daughter's college funds, but I'm looking in at it as a legacy building tool, like another way to grow tax free money, because now, you can roll the 35, 000 out into their IRA, I have three girls, so
it's a big pot for all of them, and then we can use it for other things, homeschooling, all of these different things, but if they get scholarships, if they go to college, I'll pull that money out, but also if they take this route, worst case scenario is I'll take that money out with a 10 percent penalty, but it's still a whole chunk of change that's been able to grow tax free, but I'm, it's I'm funding it's in addition to everything else, I'm not sacrificing any other investments to fund my 529.
Gerry Born: right. I, I guess the point, the part I don't like about what we've [00:39:00] done is I wish I just put that 2, 000 a year in an up month for my son, because then he would be sitting on 80, 000 and then now I'm trying to unwind it and figure a work around and, there are things to do. But like you said, if it's 10 percent penalty.
And you're taking out 000 over the course of a few years. Okay. No, very little harm done, but it's, this is something I've got to think about.
Naseema: Hmm Yeah,
Gerry Born: already coast fire. Go at it. Yeah. Yeah.
Naseema: Have their IRA. They already have their EMAs and so they'll be good. It's just like that back end. And a part of me is like a fear thing. I came out with 200, 000 in student loan debt. I don't want them to have to start. Like with the deficit like that, but also, just the cool things that we can do with that money.
So I get a hundred percent what you're saying. If we can just figure out ways to eliminate [00:40:00] that cost, but also I don't think these college institutions, the prices are going up because people say we having money saved, I think it's just because of the availability of student loans and that whole beast of student loans that is needs to. I blame student loans for
Gerry Born: the thing that frightens me most about that is you can't declare bankruptcy on them. And so you're looking at debt servitude. and no one's going to be saying, Oh, you're a college boy. You've got your, you got your degree. And it's a hundred thousand, 200, 000. That's, that's a mortgage payment.
And then you're trying to buy a house and a car, it's, you gotta be super careful with those.
Naseema: yes, yes. So I, my daughter is my daughter's 10, but hypothetically, if somebody is trying to put their their kid is in high school. They want to get them started. What year should they start looking at doing these testing? What are the again summarize the platforms that you use?
Because I know some of them that [00:41:00] you initially used during cobit aren't in existence. And then what is the typical timeline? Cause I know your son is super fast reader. You're super smart. What is the typical timeline that people can, complete this, these tests while they're in high school.
I
Gerry Born: see. I think the winner from these ACE courses, it appears that Sophia is very strong. And to give you an idea, it's, if you buy a year subscription, it's 599. And you can take, you can sign up for two courses at a time, but it's unlimited. So as far as how long it takes, it depends on how familiar the kid is with the platform.
And like my son realized pretty quick that he had to go through the, there's basically like participate, like you read the article and you get three questions for that little mini unit and you have to get one right in that unit just showing that you're reading. So he could work through like maybe eight of those units in a [00:42:00] day and there's.
Like four levels and then you're taking tests. So anyway, I would say a month, you could do two courses, depending on how motivated they are and just bear in mind for teenagers. Motivation is a problem. Um,
Naseema: incentive.
Gerry Born: Yeah, you, yeah, you might have to, you might have to put some salt in the water or salt in their food to make them drink the water, right?
I'm, curious to see because my son has a subscription right now and he's not doing a lot with it, but when he's done with high school and he has more time he doesn't really have a whole lot to do. I'm curious. If he'll just burn through them, like his Spanish to personal finance.
I think he will because that's all he's got left to do at Sophia for the most part. But I would say don't, it's very easy for the kid to start hating working online. So I would just encourage them to take courses. For example, if they're in American government, American government's one of the [00:43:00] things in Sophia, I would have them do it while they're in that course in high school.
US history. And then it's there's U. S. History one and two on Sophia. There's, intro to psychology, intro to sociology, which of course is that you might see your junior senior year in high school college math, which is, junior senior level math and just remind them it's all pass fail.
You're just trying to bank your credits and show that you have some confidence here. Spanish one, Spanish two. Now there's French one. So I would focus on getting things that they already have exposure with. And then I would steer them to things they have an interest in. I would say they can definitely get a year, year and a half, two years from junior freshman year to senior year, but, let them work at their pace.
And if you bought a subscription for four years, what is that? 2, 000? Is that, yeah. 2, 000 to get two years of college. That's a deal, right? Especially in today's market. But just have an end [00:44:00] plan where you're going to send those credits.
Naseema: Mm-Hmm. .Yes. And that's what I was gonna say.
Gerry Born: Here in Georgia, Georgia Tech, UGA, they don't take any of those types of credits. So if you're, you got your heart set on going to UGA, which most people do here in Georgia, this ain't going to help you. And that's fine. As long as you understand that, and now you're going to go play their game.
And so just understand what you're getting yourself into. Now, I would advise get a degree and then go to grad school, UGA. If you're. That's your dream, right?
Naseema: the whole thing. Is that a lot? I think people put a lot of, especially when I was coming up like it was like prestigious to go to these institutions and, oh, that'll look great on your resume. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. You might get some connections from it, but like you said, if that's really what you wanna do.
Do grad school there and the thing is, grad school is easier to get into. It's less [00:45:00] competitive and they often have a lot of funding. My whole grad school was paid for. It was free. So that's something to look at to if you have to have these degrees by, these students. Which I don't even know how relevant it is anymore, but that is a viable option.
Gerry Born: I always tell people cheap keg beer tasted just as good in grad school as it did in undergrad. If you want that college experience, you can go have it as a young grad student.
Naseema: Exactly. Exactly. And it's overrated. Anyway, it gets old really, really fast. Just in case you're wondering, and then there's going to be those parents that are like, oh, there, you can't get back those years of socialization that you learned in college. But really it's socialization worth paying.
40, 50, 60, 000 a year for
Gerry Born: No,
Naseema: I don't
Gerry Born: my son next year, what he's looking at [00:46:00] doing is finishing up that degree while we probably live in Mexico and he's going to really focus on his Spanish. And so he'll be connected down there and have this little social network. It's going to be awesome. We usually go to Merida, which has got an awesome vibe, very friendly people, great place.
And I don't think he's going to miss out on much. And like I said, like we were just saying, he's probably going to grad school, I don't know, around 20, 21, somewhere around then. And if he really wants to see what it was like, he can see it then, there's always an option.
Naseema: yes, I love it. And just for people to understand there's options. And I think more now than ever, like my generation who is now sending their kids off to college is kind of like scarred from all these student loans and stuff. And so they are the main ones that are questioning. Sending their kids to college, they're the ones questioning the 529 plan.
And so they're looking for alternatives. And so I think that this is a great alternative. But just exactly what you said know your path know that if you're set on [00:47:00] going to, said college, they might not accept that. But, you can get your degree from like an Excelsior or something like that out of New York and then be able to apply for grad school.
That's another option. But if you just wanted to get your degree and not have it associated with these name brand colleges, you have a very affordable, very fast path. To do so I just, love sharing what's possible for people. So they know what's out there. Cause the, who talks about this? Nobody talks about this.
I had no idea,
Gerry Born: one of the developments I've seen over time is that just the proliferation of graduate school programs and they seem to be very student friendly I give you example, Kennesaw State University in Marietta, Georgia, North of Atlanta is excellent business program, they do night MBAs.
They do executive MBAs. I did all my pre reqs for my MBA there. And Saturday I got up, it took accounting [00:48:00] like eight o'clock in the morning, Saturday, which I didn't really love at times, but it was available, and so it's just, they built a schedule around people's busy schedules and it was great.
You can get so many things done now, it used to be, if you want a master's degree, you got to pull up roots and go to. The university for two years and jumped through a ton of hoops there. It's, it's much more favorable to the student now. And there's so many programs that you're going to get accepted into some of them.
It might not be your first choice, but Oh you always have a B, C or D ready.
Naseema: Yes. Yes. There's so many options. There's so many options. And I just love that your son is going to spend his senior year of college learning in Merida, Mexico, like living a good life out there. Wow. And it's just re imagining What's possible for people like if I had these options, I don't know if I would have went to college, but it was so [00:49:00] ingrained in me, like in order to get out of the financial situation in order to get out of a hood or lack of better words, you go to, you go get your good grades in high school, do all the AP classes, go to college, go to the best college you can so you can land that really good job and you work there forever.
And it was just a plan for my parents generation that was laid out for them to make sure that your kids were successful. And that model didn't necessarily work. we may or may not have graduated. And when we graduated with a lot of debt, especially because our parents couldn't afford these institutions if we didn't get scholarships.
And then we got into these jobs that. We weren't making a lot of money and a lot of people don't even work in their degree field. And I definitely have two master's degrees to be a bedside nurse, which I am highly overeducated for. So it's just like these, we have to re imagine what education looks like for our kids and to know that this is a possibility is amazing.[00:50:00]
Gerry Born: right. And the degree is always going to be, it's a credential in a lot of ways. It's not, and if that's the way I view it, I'm all for the learning. I study foreign languages all the time right now. It's my hobby. And, but you don't have to go to college to learn. But you do have to go get your degree a lot of times for a credential and sadly, a lot of times it's a box they check in an interview.
Do you have your degree? Yes, they don't care if it's PE or physics and it's getting to the point where I think it's going to be like that with a graduate degree. I don't know what your thoughts are on that, but it just seems
Yeah, a lot. It's very common to see everyone has one now. So I would say, get it, get those things done while you're young and you're energetic and you're enthusiastic about it because as you get older, it's not as your schedule's busy and you're at your energy level tends to wane.
Do it while you're young and don't take on any debt for it.
Naseema: Yeah. I love [00:51:00] that. I love that. And I definitely could not have gotten all these degrees at this point. I am in life right now. If I even thought of going back to school to me, it brings me anxiety. But anyway, Jerry, this has been an amazing interview, an amazing opportunity to catch up with you to see where you are.
Happy birthday to your son who just turned 18 today. Yeah, this is incredible. I look forward to hearing about your adventures in Mexico and what's going on next. And hopefully you won't be pursuing any more degrees because I think a PhD is a great terminal degree.
Gerry Born: Yes.
Naseema: But you never stopped losing that passion to learn, which I love.
Gerry Born: Yeah. Thanks for having me on. It was great catching up with you. And I'll just say that if anybody wants to catch up with me, I infrequently blog at millionaireeducator. com. That's where you'll find me.
Naseema: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Gerry Born: some of my craziness is still there. So
Naseema: And then what's the name of the article again, that you talked about the degree [00:52:00] 700.
Gerry Born: yeah, back to school number three, it's a 5. 5 years of college and five months for 714. I
Naseema: Love it
Yes. And we will link that in the show notes for you guys, as well as the resources that he mentioned here. That's such a wealth of knowledge. So just good information overall. I like, I admire you. So it's, I was just so happy that you took the time out to join me.
Naseema: Because you're someone I look up to, so I appreciate you.
Gerry Born: Thank you. And I, I appreciate the work that you do because. It's lonely here in the fire club. We want more people to join it and to make our get togethers bigger. And if you're already a fire, you're already fine, help people, pull them along, share your story and, don't beat them over the head with it, but just show them that there is a, there is light.
There is a possibility to get financially free.[00:53:00]
Naseema: Yes, there are so many possibilities. It is possible for you to, so we hope that you join us.
Hey there I’m Naseema
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