Do I Need Financial Therapy - Episode 58

In today's episode, I'm super excited to share my conversation with Aja Evans, a financial therapist who's going to help us understand something really important: financial therapy. Most of us need help with our money, and it's not just about learning tips and tricks. It's about changing how we think and feel about money. Aja tells us about her journey from working in mental health to discovering financial therapy. She shares her own financial ups and downs and how she learned to manage her money better. We talked about why it's hard to make good money choices and how therapy can help us get better at it. Aja also gives advice on finding a financial therapist and why it's important for our mental health.

About our guest:
Aja is a board-certified therapist, speaker, and consultant specializing in financial therapy. She is committed to assisting people in how they navigate the emotional side of money. Aja works to better incorporate how we speak, think, and build products for people that include both the logical and emotional parts of us. In addition to her practice, Aja has a column "Finance in Focus" with Square and is a consultant to #FinTech companies looking to integrate how we feel and behave with money.  She has been quoted in major news outlets such as The New York Times, Bloomberg, CNBC, and NerdWallet. Coined the “feel good financial therapist,” Aja is on a mission to get more people engaged in living their best life while attuning to their thoughts, feelings, and behaviors around money.

Aja Evans Counseling

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TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Naseema: All right, my financially intentional people. We are joined by Aja Evans and we are going to talk about the super duper important topic of financial therapy because most of y'all. All of us need financial therapy. Okay. Let's just keep it real. Hey Aja, how you doing?

[00:00:16] Aja: Hi, happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

[00:00:20] Naseema: Of course, of course. And I was super hyped to get you on the podcast because like I was telling you before, I think 99. 9 percent of people need financial therapy, especially when they're trying to navigate, like getting started getting their money together. Like most people are just like, how do I get started?

A lot of it is mindset. They think it's like, Tips and techniques that they can do, but the thing is, is that you cannot approach your finances with the same mindset that got you in a bad financial position. So you have to change the game up, but a lot of people don't know where to turn to. And in all honesty I.

Just learned about financial therapy as this thing, right? But then I'm just like, where are all the financial therapists? And where are all the financial therapists that can relate to people like me, right? And so before we dive into all the financial therapy stuff, I just want you to introduce yourself and how you got into this space.

[00:01:20] Aja: Sure. So hello, everybody. I am Aja Evans. I'm a licensed mental health counselor and financial therapist. So I have been in the mental health industry and in the field for over 10 years at this point. I think what's it? 14 years. Yep. 14 years. Out of grad school and was solely really working as a therapist in mental health, community health, all like all over the place in mental health.

I've been there somehow, some way, some form. And I didn't realize that financial therapy was even a thing either. So you're not the only one. And. I'll say when I I went on a journey, if you will, a financial glow up. I'm still glowing up always to where I want to get to. But really, about 10 years ago, that's when I found personal finance and I was gobbling up all of the information.

The landscape did not look the way it looks today. 10 years ago. So it was really me looking at blogs or finding hints of information here. There was a ton of Debt free community conversations, but it wasn't always diving into the nuances of personal finance and it started out because I was in New York City.

Both of my parents are from New York City, but I grew up in upstate New York and then moved here after grad school. And I was making more money than I ever had before. And I did not understand where my money was. And my money was out in the wind with everybody else because I was living my best life and going to brunches and still trying to pay for my car and still have a nice apartment and live in.

I was making it rain and I was living and I was just like, Oh, I can't afford to do that. And. Have my money do the things that I want it to do and for me at that time, it was mostly just saving. I was paying into my 401k that I got through my job, but not in a way that mattered. It was kind of like, very Oh, put 100 here and just set it, forget it.

Don't worry about it. And then I'll tell you, I did one of the cardinal sins. I me. Took that money out when I left the job. I cashed it out I did not roll it

[00:03:35] Naseema: Cash it out. Yeah.

I

[00:03:37] Aja: it out.

[00:03:38] Naseema: it's money. You like, okay. I have access to this money. Oh, I might have to pay a small penalty, I need this money. Yeah.

[00:03:44] Aja: It's fine Savings account. No, no, no, no, no, no, but long story short That's when I had my awakening that something needed to change and I could not get enough of financial education I just loved it. I wanted to read all of the books and to your point I think there was a part of me that was trying to find out the next trick, the next tip that was going to change my money life, but really I needed to look within.

And when I started to look within, I was like, you know what? I just don't feel as good as other people with money. My self esteem is hurting when somebody else is dropping down their card at brunch and I'm a little hesitant, but I don't want people to know that I'm hesitant, but I'm still going to drop it, but I'm uncomfortable right now and my self esteem was really not doing so hot , and I work in mental health in New York City. So my salary at the time, I think, honestly, I think I was making 60, which was a big deal to me. Like 60, 000 was more than my parents had made. And we lived a lovely life in Albany, but the cost of living is very different.

And I didn't understand, my friends were making so much more money than I was, so me trying

[00:05:01] Naseema: mean, 60, 000 in New York city. I don't

[00:05:05] Aja: right? I was, like, I'm making

[00:05:08] Naseema: but girl, no.

[00:05:10] Aja: No, it wasn't it. And I thought it was, I really did think it was, and I was just trying to do too much and trying to keep up with my friends and shop. And like I said, go to brunch and go out to dinner that same day and go to the movies and then keep going drinking.

Like I was just having a good time, but. I just wasn't doing the right thing with my money and I was feeling bad about it. So that's what brought me Into the field and I had trying to figure out a way to mesh the two industries for a long time And then I stumbled upon financial therapy And I was like, oh, this is it.

This is what I want to be talking about This is what i'm already talking about. I just didn't have a name for it

[00:05:48] Naseema: Okay. So in transitioning into that space. What helped you create like a therapy framework around that? Did you get an extra certification? What did you have to do to adapt to that style or bridge that into your current practice?

[00:06:05] Aja: Yep, so I mean I was already coming in with a leg up because I had spent so long in mental health and had the theoretical approaches in terms of mental health wise. It really was just me understanding and layering on the money part and how money might be the trigger for people to go into these places with their mental health.

The 1st. Center I found was a center for financial social work. So I took that course and then I found the financial therapy association, which I'm very involved in now. I took their course as well. I also did the course through trauma of money and just, I wanted more information. So this was about my own learning and my understanding and that allowed me to really understand where I was coming from personally and also how I wanted to show up for my clients and my potential clients and how I wanted to talk about the money and emotional part.

[00:07:03] Naseema: That's so dope. So it sounded like you were your ideal candidate. How did you use your ideal client? I should say, but how did you use these practices on yourself?

[00:07:17] Aja: Yeah, I, because again. Therapy, therapy, therapy, right? I have always been an introspective person. So I would always ask myself those hard questions. I would dig into myself. I would journal. I would really spend a lot of time thinking about how I felt about things. And I'm a very honest and transparent person. I think it has gotten more so as I have been working for myself, but I've always just been like this. So if somebody would ask me some of those harder questions, I'm like, okay, we, you're going to get this answer. Okay. You're not going to get just a fine. Okay, we're, I'm going to go to these places and it's okay if you don't want to, but I'm going to start thinking about it myself.

So I think that just natural propensity to really dig into myself was really, really helpful. So then when I do it with my clients, I'm like, Is that your honest answer? Because if that was too quick, I need you to think a little bit harder. And I want, I want you to get uncomfortable with your own honesty saying it out loud. And that's been really helpful.

[00:08:21] Naseema: So how has this helped you financially in your habits? You was out there living girl.

[00:08:27] Aja: I was,

[00:08:28] Naseema: What milestones have you been able to reach? As we know, this is a marathon. This is not just a destination. This is a marathon. So we're continually improving, but what personal milestones have you been able to achieve on this journey?

[00:08:42] Aja: Yeah. Many because my life has changed so much in the 10 years. I took investing and saving for retirement a lot more seriously. So that was really helpful. I, when I started, so I had a 9 to 5 and then I had my private practice on the side. I was able to pretty much we were able to pay for half of our wedding. Because I was working and saving our money, paying for a down payment on our house, was so helpful. I just understood what to be doing with my money. I did get out of credit card debt and then got back into credit card debt, which is fine, I also have two kids in daycare and that

is the price of people's mortgage

[00:09:22] Naseema: let me tell you something. Let's not talk. Let's not talk about the daycare. I'm newly traumatized again. It's not even a year until I stopped paying for the daycare and I do pay for after school care, that's not the same as daycare, but girl, paying this daycare for this baby honey traumatized is only been a week.

It's fresh. Okay. So I'm gonna need some therapy around that. Let me just say it's a lot.

[00:09:47] Aja: I'm here for you. I'm here for you

because it's crazy. It's really crazy

[00:09:54] Naseema: For

real.

[00:09:56] Aja: Yeah, and I have student loans, so trying to manage taking care of my family the way I want to, managing my money in a way that feels good while also in investing. And I'm honest about this because I think people hear us, I'll call myself a little financial therapy guru, if you will, or the thought leaders in this space, and they expect that we're always doing everything right. And that's just not the truth. Like here is, it's still hard for me too. I had to realize how frequently I was comparing myself to other people, how frequently I was spending to really keep up with the Joneses. That is my thing. And in a very A different way. I like clothes, but that's not a big thing for me.

I like shoes, but I want like fancy shoes.

[00:10:42] Naseema: like nice things.

[00:10:43] Aja: a I like nice things

and I could afford nice things

when I didn't have two kids.

[00:10:49] Naseema: girl. Girl, love them to death, but let me tell you something they a big setback, honey listen, we could be trillionaires. Okay. If we just invested our, our child care money, honey, we'd be out here in the streets. So when I hear people talking about, Oh, I did this X, Y, and Z.

But you a man, single man, make it six figures. Don't have no expenses. Can't eat a chicken breast every day. And that's what you spend the money on, baby. come and take these daycare expenses away from me. Okay. And then see where you at.

I'll just keep it a

[00:11:29] Aja: I be?

[00:11:29] Naseema: right,

[00:11:34] Aja: Who would she be? I'm curious.

I would love to know. I would love to know. But, that's what it is. That's why I'm like, I like nice things. I now am able to manage when I get said nice things and tell myself no happily and also Tell myself and this is what comes up a lot with clients and just people in general I still have value if I cannot afford to do xyz

and people forget that they

forget it so quickly that

Oh, I can't afford to go on that trip.

Oh, i'm gonna put on the credit card I'm gonna do this like i'm gonna do that. No, no, no, no, no I still have value if I can't say that. I'm just going to tell you now before I be like, Oh, I can't do that weekend. No, that's not in the budget right now.

[00:12:15] Naseema: not at

[00:12:16] Aja: is something else. So I can't go.

[00:12:18] Naseema: Not at all. Yes. Yes. Yes. I love that. I love that. And as part of your therapy work, it, how much of it is consumed with financial therapy versus just like traditional therapy or the approach you were taking before?

[00:12:34] Aja: Yeah, so I have, to me, what I have found out is that the second you start talking about money and you start digging deeper, it's no longer about the money. It is really much, it's really about the The the mental health stuff still it's about your feelings. It's about how you think about things It's about how you were raised and that is more about traditional mental health however I still have some clients that I've been working with for a very long time that I they know who I am and what I do So we always gonna talk about the money But they're really there because I have been there their main therapist for years and they're like girl I'm not getting ready.

You can do whatever you want, but we're gonna make this time. So that's fine, too so I would say Probably, maybe 60, 60 percent of my clients are now only financial therapy and 40 percent are traditional mental health, but it bobs dips in

[00:13:29] Naseema: Yeah. Yeah. I can see those lines being really blurred. But You already have my opinion on this and i've already shared it. But who do you think is the ideal candidate for financial therapy?

[00:13:44] Aja: everyone.

[00:13:48] Naseema: Correct, correct.

[00:13:50] Aja: So I think, does everybody need to go to a financial therapist? Probably not. But I do think that people really need to spend the time. And when I say get honest with yourself, brutal. You need to get down to the nitty gritty within yourself about where are these feelings coming up from.

Because a

lot of times what we do with our money is coming from our past, is coming from our childhood, is coming from what we witnessed when we were growing up. We're doing it despite of, or In spite of

And I don't think a lot of people realize, Oh, I'm just trying to cope with something. I'm trying to feel better about something and I'm using my money to help with that.

That anticipation, that dopamine hit, it feels really good. Like I'm not going to hold you. It feels great, but that is not the only way that we need to be coping with what's going on for us. And money is so easy to do that. If you find that you are repeating the same exact patterns, if you feel crappy about your money all the time, if you find that you're not able to either stick to your budget or meet your goals in a consistent way, time after time after time, you're making the same kind of mistakes or same missteps, it might be time to talk to somebody.

[00:15:04] Naseema: Definitely definitely now I think this is a very good time in society where people are focusing more on mental health, especially in our communities where seeking mental help was taboo. But now it's more like a norm. Everybody is talking about it. Everybody is recommending it.

However, there is an extreme shortage of mental health therapists that. we feel like we can relate to. And then I'm quite sure in the financial therapy space that is shrunk down even more. Like I know you're probably all booked and busy. Are you taking new clients or how do you recommend people find a financial therapist?

[00:15:52] Aja: So I am taking new clients, but I don't have a whole ton of spots. I'm gonna be, you are correct. There's not a ton of space. So there are a few ways to find a financial therapist. I completely agree with you. There's not enough of us. There's not enough black women. There's not enough black people.

There's not enough people of color doing this type of work in general to handle. The need. And then also people are in different fields, right? And in different industries and their comfort level. And it's also you have to be a brave entrepreneur to go out there and be like, okay, I'm going to do this on my own because this work is not paid through insurance currently. it does matter how approachable it is, but the way that you're able to look for some financial therapist in your area. Or some people that you may be able to work with. So I would definitely say the financial therapy association has a directory. There are a lot of people on there in the nation.

You have to vet and look for who might speak to you and speak to your needs. So that's going to be important. But also there are some of the other bigger. Therapy sites to look into, the psychology today's, the Zen cares, the therapy for black girls, where you can see, Hey, is this person talking about money at all?

And not of a lot of us are truly like financial therapy is still very new and still very young, and we have some ways to go to get the word out, but. Ask your therapist and listen, if you Google some of us and you find us online or you see us on social slide into somebody's DMS

Nobody is upset with a potential client sliding into their DMS to be like, hey, are you taking people?

How could we potentially work together?

[00:17:30] Naseema: I love that. I just think it's so beneficial, but I could just see like people being inundated with the request. But if somebody is making those mistakes before they start working with a financial therapist, what are some things people can do? And I, or identify and then do to get their mindset shifted around their approach to money.

[00:17:56] Aja: I really do believe i'm a firm believer in you don't know what you don't know So taking the time to really sit with yourself and ask yourself. What patterns do I always do? What's always coming up for me? What's always a roadblock for me? And journal it out. And sometimes people don't really know how to get there, but I will say the classic way is just keep asking yourself why. Why do I keep spending XYZ amount of money at target up because I really like this thing and I thought that was going to be cute. Okay, why? Oh, because I don't feel good at home. I want my living room to look really nice So I wanted to buy that lamp why because I don't love where I live and keep drilling down into why

And be honest with yourself You are the only person who needs to know this information right now. But really starting to get honest with yourself about what is the feeling behind your actions. What's going on? What are you trying to cope with? What's making you sad? What's upsetting you? What's triggering you? Really figuring out and getting honest with what's coming up with you before you start spending your money.

[00:19:02] Naseema: I love that. I love that journaling, internal reflection, and that drilling down like the five or three to five levels of why to like really get to the core of the problem. Is there a consistent theme that you see or something that comes up majority of the time with people that have like financial hangups?

[00:19:22] Aja: Yeah. So there's a few. So I, like I said, I'm going to keep it broad with coping. People are trying to cope with something. So if you grew up and you experience something that was financially traumatic, or you grew up in a place where there wasn't a lot of money, it is very easy for you as an adult now to say, Oh, I deserve this.

Oh, I never had this. So now I'm going to treat myself to this. Oh, I can afford this. So now I'm going to do that. Yeah. And all of those things may be true, but you may not be able to afford everything you're trying to do at the same time. And what I tell my clients is that what you can afford and what you deserve have nothing to do with each other.

And I don't think people get that. I'm like, no, no, no, you deserve the world. To me, I am all about humans. Everybody deserves a world. Everybody deserves to feel stable and comfortable and loved and warm. I believe everyone deserves that. I think we'd be in a better place if everyone was getting that.

But, everybody isn't. And everybody doesn't get that by circumstance, whatever it is, what you can afford has nothing to do with what you deserve. And we have to separate those two because we will put ourselves in negative positions financially because you're like, I deserve it, but I can't afford it, but I'm still going to get it. No, boo boo. Like I want you to live a prosperous life in the future too. So scarcity, financial trauma. I've had people share that they spend a lot of money cause they're lonely, but they didn't realize they did not connect being lonely to their spending. So like I said, searching deep inside yourself to figure out what's going on with you.

For me, sometimes it was self esteem. I was like, Oh, you know what, Aja, you will look so fly. If you show up in those, those new pair of shoes, like you need them.

[00:21:15] Naseema: Yeah.

[00:21:15] Aja: Could I afford them all the time? No, but did I always get them? Sometimes.

[00:21:21] Naseema: That you need them is it every time it gets me every time Girl, no, you do not need to spend 200 a month on lashes, even though yes, she would show up better No makeup, you know I'm saying but do you really need it?

No,

No,

[00:21:40] Aja: And if you, and, and here's the thing, if you decide that you do, what are we giving up to make sure that you can afford the

200 lashes?

I'm okay with that too,

but we got to give something up if we can't afford it.

[00:21:52] Naseema: yes. I love, I love what Paula pan says you could afford anything, just not everything, and I am a firm believer in for the things that make you happy that spark joy in your life, but that means you got to eliminate the other BS that doesn't. And a lot of the times we.

Subconsciously spends money on things that don't matter to us so that we don't have the money left over to pay for those things that we really, really want and desire in life. And that's why I love like intentional like budgeting so that you make sure you prioritize those things. And then those little dollar things in the front of Target don't matter to you anymore because they're cheap and they're cute.

Okay, it ain't fitting your goals. And if you know you want those really, really cute shoes or a really, really cute bag, then you like. I'm about to get this bag. Like we not worried about this, but it has to be intentional. And so I love that. I love that. You say you got to give up something, you got to give up something.

So

I think this is an incredible conversation. I think people identify, can identify and clearly see that you probably need financial therapy. A lot of us need financial therapy. And the thing is, is that I'm not perfect. Aja's not perfect, but the thing is, is that it's the small little things that we continue to accumulate.

Even if we mess up, that sets us on a path to. Put us in a good place financially. And I think a lot of people focus on those big picture things. Like I have to make six figures. I have to have this much invested. I have to be doing these things, but it's really those small everyday things that therapy can help you unveil and work on and create action plans around that we need to be focused on.

And so yes, financial therapy. Everybody is like the slogan is the slogan for 2024. So Aja, like, how can people reach out to you? I know you can sign in the DMs, but where are you at? How can people work with you and take those last few slots you have on your calendar?

[00:24:10] Aja: Yeah. Fill them up. I'm ready. So I, you can, you can find me on the socials. So I'm on Instagram and a little bit on TikTok dipping a toe, seeing how I feel at Aja E Therapy, which is spelled A J A E therapy. Also at my website Ajaevanscounseling. com I have a newsletter if you're interested in getting updates on a monthly basis I'm writing a book

that will hopefully be out towards the end of this year So that's really really exciting and those are and I say this Because I think it's really important that people know there is a financial commitment with therapy and not everybody's in a position to make that financial commitment and that's okay if you can find a therapist that you can work with that is within your finances.

Even better, but there are a lot of different resources that you can access this type of information. I like I love podcast. I love being a guest on podcast. So I go on as many as I can. Books will be really helpful. Be careful who you get some of your. your social media information from, but that people are out there to talking about it.

So even if that's the first entry and then you do some more research, allow that to guide you into the world of financial therapy or anything for that matter, money, just money in general. Talk about your money with your friends too.

[00:25:28] Naseema: Yes. Yes. And speaking of money do you see most financial therapists work on like a sliding scale, take insurance, or usually have a flat fee? Like, how does the payment structures typically go? I know that's the general question, but I know everybody's different, but what do you do?

Gotta

[00:25:46] Aja: can say there are typically not going to be a financial therapist who is taking insurance unless they are able to diagnose you with something like gambling addiction or gambling gambling. gambling abuse because the rest of the other things that come up, if it's not mental health, kind of like, generalized anxiety disorder, and you have to be seeing a licensed clinician to be diagnosed with that within your state. The medical model that the US, bases their insurance off of does not recognize some of these things. So it is rare that you might be able to utilize insurance. So I will say that unless you're being diagnosed with something else. So that's one part of it. And then for me personally, I take out of pocket.

I do have sliding scale, but they're all filled up because, you got to get it when the getting's

[00:26:34] Naseema: be financially intentional. Okay, let's not play. Okay, you got bills. You got daycare. Okay, stop playing.

[00:26:40] Aja: Exactly. Exactly. And that, and that has been a process for me too and for a lot of therapists because what we're told growing, coming up through schooling and systems is that you're not in this field for the money. You're here to help somebody. And that is very much the truth. But to your point I have a mortgage. I have kids. I want to be able to afford to take sick time because you don't get paid if you're not working. So you need to be able to save for these things as well as vacation time too. And people hear our prices sometimes, at least sometimes people hear my price and what? When will I get back? And I'm like, listen, You are getting a master's degree, three different training programs, 14 years of experience, my time, my energy. I'm going to be thinking about this. I'm going to be giving you recommendations of books, all these books I've read. And also this is how I can afford health insurance and to have an office and an electronic medical record.

So a lot of the people like you get paid this much money an hour. I'm like, yeah, but I don't work. I don't see 40 hours of clients a

week. Like that. is way too much. It's way too much. So,

um, ask if you're looking for a sighting scale, definitely ask the therapist and just see, Hey, is there something we can do?

Do I have to see you on the recommended time? Can I see you a little less, but we're doing some of the work, any resources that you have, I'm open to. So

[00:28:02] Naseema: You know what's wild to me is that these schools like push this narrative that you're not in it for the money. But how much do loans that did you have to take to learn that to hear that? I'm just saying stop playing with me. Okay. I just paid you. So I need to get my money back. Okay. All right.

That's that. I just had to bring that up because that's really wild to me. The other thing is that I really feel like this should be incorporated in a lot of programs work relate. I forgot what your employee something program,

Because people are really struggling, and I really feel like that creates a healthy workforce when somebody is financially stable, they're able to show up at their job a lot better.

And so I think there should be a push for, if it's not insurance covered by insurance in that way, it should be an employer sponsored benefit for people who are traditionally employed or a way. I know there's EOP programs, people who are, self employed to Kim buy into, but I really feel like this should be something that is covered by these employers.

It just doesn't it just doesn't make any sense that this day and age we have to pay out of pocket for something that is so important. And I really feel like financial well, being as a part of emotional well, being because like day and being in a bad financial place has a tremendous physiological effect on us.

And I think a lot of people don't talk about that, you feel it when you're not in a good place financially, you're not sleeping right. You have anxiety. It creates all kinds of problems in your life. It messes up your relationships because there's. It just changes the way that you move in the world.

And so it's so important. And until we get a solution around it, there are options out there. And I love that you have a tier system. Listen, if you can't afford to pay me, check. me out on these podcasts, I'm writing this book, so there's levels, right? You're either going to pay with time or you're going to pay with money, but this is something that you should definitely invest in.

So I really appreciate you Aja, it's always a pleasure talking to you. You dropped so many gems today and I hope people are able to reach out to you or take advantage of the resources that you have, but like overall, I just wanted to thank you for doing what you do. And for taking the time to talk to the Financially Intentional audience about it.

[00:30:30] Aja: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. This was so fun and this time flew by.

[00:30:34] Naseema: It did. It did. All right, girl.

Hey there I’m Naseema

My dream is for everyone to know that financial independence is attainable with a little intentionality. Learn how I can help you finally break the cycle of living paycheck to paycheck.

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