Financial Infidelty and Protecting Yourself - Episode 14

Learn how to look for financial red flags of fraud so they find the money that belongs to them. We discuss how to prepare for divorce/break ups and financial items you will need record of. Get the tools to have proactive money conversations with your partner even if a break isn’t in your plans. 

Tracy has been investigating fraud for more than 25 years, but she didn’t always want to be a forensic accountant. With a dream of one day being a prison warden, Tracy went to Marquette University in Milwaukee, WI to get a criminology degree. A class on financial crime investigations reminded her how much she loved Encyclopedia Brown books as a kid. She continued her criminology degree, but added accounting and economics courses so she could sit for the CPA exam… and here Tracy is, finding money in cases of corporate fraud, high net worth divorce, and other financial shenanigans.

Get $100 of Tracy’s Divorce Money Guide with code: NASEEMA

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TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Naseema: . Welcome back. Financially Intentional People. I'm Super Juice because we are gonna be learning a lot about forensic accounting. And divorce and protecting yourself in that process. And hopefully no one ever has to go through a divorce.

 Or a breakup like I had to go through with my domestic partnership . But if you do, you want to know Tracy Conan? So, hey, Tracy, before we jump in, I just wanted to say hey, and have you introduced

[00:00:35] Trace: yourself? Well, thank you for having me. Mm-hmm. , as you said, I'm a forensic accountant, so I find money and I do that in a corporate context for companies that have executives stealing money.

I do fraud investigations for them but I also do it on the personal side, so people who are going through divorce who are concerned that their spouse is hiding money or has siphoned money off or maybe has been spending on an affair, partner, drugs, gambling. any sort of naughty stuff that their spouse wouldn't have approved of.

I look into those kinds of things and try to figure out where the money went so that when we are settling that divorce and dividing up the assets that, you know, my client can get their fair share.

[00:01:19] Naseema: I'm interested what got you started in that specific area of forensic account? , the

[00:01:25] Trace: divorce area specifically, I actually stayed away from for a while because I did not feel prepared for the emotional side of it.

The clients are of course, very emotional. Divorce is one of the worst. Things a person can go through and their biggest concerns are what's gonna happen to the kids and what's gonna happen to the money? You know, am I gonna have enough to retire? Am I gonna be able to make the house payment? Will I even just be able to buy groceries?

Will I ever go on a vacation again? So I kind of shied away from divorce work, but about, oh gosh, 15, 16, 17 years ago, someone referred a divorce case to me and the person who was referring was someone I didn't wanna disappoint. So I agreed to take the case and. I, it was a complicated case. My client was very wealthy and her husband was trying to tap into her family's wealth that was really protected with trusts and things like that.

And he was trying to make a money grab at that time, even though they had a prenup and things like that. And so I was in a position of having to go through all of their finances for the last several years and figure out as a family, what were they spending money on, but also, What was he spending money on?

Secretly? She had left him in charge of the family's money, even though it was really all her money because it was her family's wealth. She was getting distributions from trust and she wanted him to feel empowered over the money even though he wasn't earning anything. So she let him take care of the money, their entire marriage.

And so I was in a position of having to figure out what the heck did this guy do with the. and through that experience I actually found that I was able to deal really well with the emotional component of divorce and get really great results for a client. So I said, okay, I will take on more divorce cases.

And I actually, even though divorce is so difficult, I find that what I do can really help empower my clients and I am, you know, when they are really upset about, The arguing about the kids, the potentials for who's gonna keep the house or not, all those emotional types of things. I'm like the calm in the storm where I say, okay, but I wanna look at some facts and find some strategies to help you on the money piece.

So that was

[00:03:48] Naseema: a really long answer. . No, but that was so good. . That was really, really good. And yes divorce and separation is heavily emotionally at like really heavy and just makes you feel super disempowered. And I just remembered, you know, Going through that process and just feeling like I didn't have any control, even though I felt like I was doing the best with our finances in that situation.

Like to be at the mercy of someone who could just buy whatever they were going through that day. Make decisions financially that can impact you for the rest of your life. It, it, it's really disempowering . Right? But to have that comfort of like, knowing that part I know like gives so many people hope and Yes.

Helps with those emotional things that are going on.

[00:04:44] Trace: Well, the other thing that I find is if you're going through a divorce and you have questions, what you're gonna hear over and over is is your friends and family or. Online support group saying, talk to your attorney, and they're right. Yes. Talk to your attorney because the laws in every state are different.

How your circumstances fit into the law will be different, but being told, talk to your attorney and then you call your attorney and you get. Boiler plate answer back, or you get an attorney who is not taking time with you. I think that's a very common experience. And so what I like being able to do in divorce, because I've done so much divorce, is to sort of be a little softer with the clients than the attorney might be able to be.

And for them to know that they can say, you know, I told my attorney that I was concerned about this issue, and he said, don't worry. And now I feel more concerned. And so I'm able to say, well, okay, I'm not an attorney and he'll know the law better than I will, but here's what I've seen in cases. I like being able to do that.

[00:05:47] Naseema: That is so dope. Like you're like the ultimate resource, but do you typically work directly with clients or do you work more with a.

[00:05:58] Trace: When I talk about my clients, I'm usually talking about the attorney because that's who usually approaches me first with the case. But the person getting divorced is my client as well, and I some cases, weirdly, I don't have much contact with the ultimate clients.

Some cases, it really all comes through the attorney. Other cases, I do work with the client very closely. It just depends what everyone's preference is. So typically the attorney will contact me first, but if the client contacts me first, I will have a conversation. Then I will say, our next step is to get on a call with your attorney because I need to know.

What your attorney's strategy is in this case, how the attorney feels your facts fit into the law and what our opportunities are, because I don't want you to spend money on work that I do if your attorney can't use it or doesn't want to use it, because I've gotten called on cases before where we've gotten on the phone with the attorney and attorney is like, I don't even want the forensic accounting work.

well, okay, then I'm out then I'm not, I'm not having the client spend money on my services. Do

[00:07:04] Naseema: you ever work with people who don't or, or aren't represented by attorneys?

[00:07:09] Trace: I don't. Mm-hmm. , I used to, and I found that that is really complicated. because what was happening was the clients were looking towards me to help them navigate the legal process and saying, what do I file next?

How do I make this kind of motion? I heard I should bring a motion to compel. How would I do that? And that creates liability for me if I'm advising them on that. That's outside of my scope. And so I tried to. Control those situations and ultimately it became too difficult. And so I made a rule for myself that I would only work with people who are represented by attorneys.

And that makes me a little sad though, because I know the people who aren't represented need the help too.

[00:07:53] Naseema: Yeah. Do you have resources available for people on your website if that they can kind of like self guide through or that they can use if they're not working with an. ,

[00:08:05] Trace: well, last year I had this concept of helping more people in their divorces because I probably do only about four or five divorces a year, and they're typically for people who are very wealthy.

My services are most appropriate. For complicated financial situations because forensic accounting is expensive, and for the average divorce for probably 95% of divorces, you actually don't need a forensic accountant. You don't need to spend 10 or $15,000 to sort out your finances. But where? Where is there an option?

If a forensic accountant costs too much and you're concerned about the money and need to sort things out? What do you do? I came up with the concept for the Divorce Money Guide, which is a self-help product. It's on an online learning platform. It's got videos and ebook, worksheets, checklist, things to walk people through.

How do you sort through what's happening with the money? How do you as a non-accounting. Find out whether there's hidden money and there's some super easy techniques that I teach things to look for in the bank statements that you don't have to be a numbers person to find.

[00:09:14] Naseema: Man, that's a super valuable resource and I think that bridges that gap for people who aren't super wealthy, which, you know, is most people.

to be able to have access to the resources and to create a knowledge base around what to look for. And I think even if you're not going through a divorce, if you suspect any kind of financial infidelity these are tools that you can use to kind of detect that , which might ultimately lead to a divorce or actually lead to conversations which can solve this.

Never in my life imagine getting married again because I've had to go through two divorces, technically. The first one was with my husband, short-term marriage, abusive marriage. But because California is a no fault state, still had to. End up paying him. And then my second one was domestic partnership.

And when the domestic partnership, what a lot of people don't know is if you have property and kids in common and you're not on the same page where you can just easily file an affidavit if there's any kind of contingent. You have to go through a divorce process, . And so I've been divorced twice technically and have two divorce decrees.

And so I don't foresee marriage in my future, but I do foresee you know, partnerships where there will be, you know, we're coming into. You know, different financial obligations and possibility possibly. Being in a partnership where finances are joined, what are some things that I can do?

Proactively to protect myself. And what are things that people who are going into a marriage can actively do to protect themselves or proactively do to protect themselves?

[00:11:02] Trace: Well, speaking about that partnership that might not include marriage. Now everyone has to be mindful of their state laws and what their states allow.

But in many states, you can do something like a cohabitation agreement. They will call it different things in different places, but it's basically a contract, kind of like a prenuptial agreement that says we're deciding to live together. , but if we ever separate, here's how it's gonna work. Your money is still yours.

My money is still mine. Here's what would happen with our assets. That's a wonderful way to protect yourself. Just as a prenuptial agreement is for those people who are going to enter into marriage and prenups are not just for wealthy people. Even if you feel like you don't have much right now. What the prenup is important for is it tells you if we ever decide to stop being.

in the future. Here's how we are gonna sort out the money and it lets you choose how you sort out the money versus letting a judge in a divorce court choose how you sort out the money. So that's the first big step that I recommend.

[00:12:11] Naseema: Yeah, I love that and I love the cohabitation agreement. Have you seen things get a little bit trickier when there's kids.

[00:12:22] Trace: it is trickier. And, you know, a prenuptial agreement cannot do something like, say, how much child support is gonna be paid in the future. The states, I think all states disallow that because they say, Nope. You know, someone needs to protect the kids. And like, you can't, you can't in a prenup plan to say, there'll be no child support or something like that because circumstances change and whatnot.

So there are things that you have to be mindful of in that regard. So it can't cover everything, but it can cover a lot of the big things.

[00:12:56] Naseema: Yeah. I think if you're not in agreement and you guys are on separate pages, when it comes to kids, like family court is what's gonna happen regardless. , yes, if you have stuff in writing, but if you can't come to an agreement, , which, you know, hopefully people can, but often, you know, it doesn't happen.

And so family court is in, let me tell you, as someone going through family court, it is not the best place to be. So it's, it's, it's a pretty hard process to navigate. And that's something that's a lot harder, like you said, to kind of protect against and to plan for because things do change.

[00:13:36] Trace: Family court never feels fair, and especially when it comes to the kids.

I mean, that is your heart and that is what you wanna protect above all else. And nobody knows your kids and what's right for them as well as you do. And to have these people, these outside folks who've never met you before, making decisions for your kids can be really, really. . Yeah.

[00:14:00] Naseema: There are counseling services that will hopefully help you to prevent going into family court by offering mediation and things like that.

So just off, like giving people like a, a resource for that kind of stuff. And they'll help you kind of navigate custody and all of those kind of things. And actually, if you go to family court, in the backend. They'll send you through this process as well. But it's something that you can do again proactively so that you can try to avoid the family courts because they're gonna make a decision that's not gonna be the best decision for probably either one of you or your kids, just because they don't know the situation as well as you do.

I mean, good intentions are there, but again, it, they don't. Your situation like you do. So you know,

[00:14:45] Trace: Mediation is a wonderful process. Even if you think that your ex is unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate and unwilling to talk about stuff, I still recommend the process.

I recommend trying, if you can get 'em to the table. That mediator is someone who works with both of you to try to find some common ground so that you can come to agreement again without having the court make their decision for you. And I've seen it be successful in a lot, a lot of cases, even when people didn't think they'd ever be able to come to an agreement.

So I love that you brought that.

[00:15:20] Naseema: Yeah, mediation is where it's at. And therapy. . Yes. Therapy and therapy comes in many different forms. Couples therapy, financial therapy. There's a lot of trauma. Speaking of which, like finances in relationships is gonna be one of the leading causes of divorce, a breakup.

Period, and there's a lot of instances of financial infidelity, and I just wanted to know if you can define what financial infidelity is and maybe share an example and, and you already have in your, in your story of going into divorce. But like if you have another example of something, some things that you've seen happen where there was financial infidelity in a relat.

[00:16:04] Trace: Financial infidelity very, very simply is telling lies about the money to your spouse or partner, and those lies can be lying about what you're spending money on secretly spending money. You know, not disclosing information about the money to your spouse withholding information from them. So it, it really, there is sort of a, a broad definition of it.

But it is super, super common. Like a recent study, I think reported 73% of people in the study said they have lied to their partner about. And are actively lying about money. And sometimes it's the little white lies that we think aren't so bad and sometimes it's the big lies, like the secret gambling addiction or someone who cashed out the ira secretly.

That's, that's a good example of financial and fidelity that I had in a case where, you know, husband and wife are getting divorced and wife is like, this stinks, but I'll have half of the retirement account, I'll have half of the equity in the house and somehow I'll be okay. And when it came down to it, he had taken out a secret home equity line of credit on the home.

So there was no equity in the house whatsoever. He had gambled the money away. He had taken all of his retirement funds, cashed them out without her knowledge, gambled it all away. There was nothing to divide. .

[00:17:25] Naseema: Oh my God. is awful.

[00:17:28] Trace: And this is why. So this is why like I teach people in the Divorce Money guide how to look for evidence that a 401k was cashed out, even if it was just part of it.

Let's say just $10,000 was cashed out of it without your knowledge. I show people where with a tax return they can see that some money was cashed out because you wanna put a stop to that as soon as you can. You. Early that something like that is happening. So you said earlier that you know, some, a tool like the Divorce Money Guide can be used even if you're not getting divorced.

It's absolutely true. If someone wants to understand more about their financial situation and know more about exactly what the money has been spent on, that's a great way to use it.

[00:18:11] Naseema: What are some other ways that people can protect themselves in marriage?

[00:18:17] Trace: definitely the number one way that people can protect themselves is by having information. What I find it's very, very common that one spouse takes care of the money in the marriage, right? We divide the duties. The spouse who isn't actively involved in paying the bills and looking at the budget and things like that, has a tendency to be really hands off and not keep an eye on things, and that sort of goes against everything I believe.

It's okay if your spouse is handling the budget, paying the bills, primarily responsible for figuring out where money's gonna be invested and everything. But I want you as the spouse who's not actively involved to still be looking at financial information. So once a month, I want you looking at the bank statement and the credit card statements, looking through all of those charges, making sure they're all things that you recognize or that seem normal.

And I want you having a check-in, talk with your spouse a minimum of once a month, and that is a bare minimum. I'd rather have the spouses have a five to 10 minute conversation once a week about the money because the more routine that we make these conversations, the less pressure there is around them and the more likely that you'll just be more well informed about the.

[00:19:36] Naseema: I know if I hear , another person say, well, I don't deal with the finances. They deal with the finances, I'm gonna scream because everybody needs to have some kind of buy-in with the finances. And I often find that people that turn a blind eye to that or just say that I'm not good with finances, so I let them handle it.

And this is not a gender specific thing. I've heard it on both sides. Is where I find the most issue. and then instead of it being those, like you suggested five minute a week conversation, it turns into these big deals that often lead to divorce.

[00:20:11] Trace: Right. I would rather see regular conversations where you're talking about, Hey, we've been saving for a car.

Here's what our progress has been. Hey, bill seemed pretty normal this month. Nothing outta the ordinary except for the heating bill was really high, but that was to be expected because it's been extra cold out. Like those are easy things that can be addressed right away and then don't have to turn to a big thing, you know?

[00:20:37] Naseema: Yeah. And I just, I just, it breaks my heart where I see these situations where people are left in relationships, like you said, where they thought the finances were being handled and then there's nothing there. Like in that situation with the lady whose husband wiped out all of their retirement accounts and took out a home equity, what kind of recourse did she have in that?

[00:21:03] Trace: Very little because when those assets are gone, they're gone. There have been scenarios, cases that I've worked on where someone has gambled some money away, but there was still equity left in the house, and so when the equity was divided, instead of maybe dividing it 50 50, which would be very typical, You know, the spouse who wasn't gambling received 70% of the house value.

Okay? So in some cases it can be made up that way. Or maybe there's an extra car that can be awarded to someone. You know, there is some value somewhere that can make up that money that was wasted or, or in the divorce world, we call it dissipated dissipation of assets. But in that, There was not anything to get, like it was just gone and that's just the end of the story.

Or I've seen guys not with gambling addictions. And I, you know, I try not to be gender specific, but for me, most of my clients are women and most of the time it has been the husbands in charge of the money. Day trading, these guys think they're gonna be stock traders and before you know it, they have wasted the entire retirement account.

Yeah. And once it's gone, there's nothing left to get. And so I do talk in the divorce money guide. Here's how you can see if they are doing stock trading and losing your money and things like that.

[00:22:23] Naseema: sounds like there's some really good tools in there that anybody can use. I mean, like even if it is just to kind of go through and really like if you haven't been in control of those finances or if you just want to know what's going on with your partner and you just need to know where to look because you're just not familiar with looking over financial documents.

It just seems like a. Resource for people to use to do that. So I think it's highly recommend people in any kind of partnership kind of get this so they can understand, especially if you know you're not on the same page financially or you know that this isn't something that you've talked about and you kind of just wanna get an understanding.

Think it's a great tool.

[00:23:06] Trace: Well, and we start at the very beginning, I think, you know, to me, if I. Naima, go get your bank statements. Well, that would be easy for you, but if you have someone who, for the last 10 years hasn't been involved in finances, that's not as easy as it sounds, and it might sound really overwhelming.

So I literally walk people through, here's how you get your bank statements if your spouse isn't giving them to you, the tax returns. I've worked in a lot of cases where the spouse who's been in control of the finances will not give up a copy of the tax returns because they're spite. Guess what? You can go directly to the IRS all by yourself and get your tax information from them immediately online.

You don't have to wait for your spouse to give that to you, but we do things like that. And then I walk you through stuff like, here's something super simple. Don't have to be good with numbers. I have people take 12 months of bank statements, your main account where all your money's been going in and out.

Take a highlighter, a green highlighter, and highlight every paycheck that you see coming. Go back and count those paychecks for the last 12 months. Now most people get paid every other week or twice a month, so that would mean you should have 24 or 26 paychecks for the year. If you go through and count up and you see 20 paychecks being deposited.

You know you have a problem and you didn't have to be a forensic accountant to find that problem, did you? ?

[00:24:30] Naseema: I love it. And it's just as simple, but people need those tips because especially if there's emotions involved there, you can't think clearly. And so to have a guy that washed you specifically through that is essential in just kind of getting your bearings and giving you your power back in a situation.

You are like really disempowered and you're really at the mercy of your partner at that point. And so I'm all about financial empowerment, financial education, and so. , what's often missing is that pe it's not that people don't have the skills, they just don't know where to start. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I think that's a, that's a great place.

So let's talk about like recovery after this process because after divorce, after a breakup where, you know, your whole financial structure, Pretty much just the floor is like ripped from underneath you. Like how do you recommend people move forward and rebuild their finances?

[00:25:32] Trace: A really important part of it is the budgeting piece, and I talk about the budget in the Divorce Money guide, and I walk you through, like I have people come up with the budget that they're gonna need to have after their divorce is final so that they can prepare themselves.

How much is it gonna cost for my apartment and my groceries and things like that. But I've taken to calling it a spending plan instead. So, because I think that sounds so much more fun than the word budget, right? Everyone's sick of hearing about you have to have a budget, so let's talk about your spending plan.

But that's super important. And then, you know, working from there to chip away maybe at the debt that you came out of the divorce with, or, you know, I want people to be able to go on a vacation again. I don't want people to feel. I'm gonna be penniless once I'm divorced, I'll never be able to do anything fun again.

So we talk about, you know, planning for things like that and trying to find areas in that budget to, to make some room for the fun things in life.

[00:26:34] Naseema: I love that. I love that. And I know the budgeting word is, . So taboo , what? It's what? It's like we all right, we have to have a plan for our money. And I think that is the greatest way to recover.

And just it, again, it's another form of empowerment, so you know where your money is going and you tell your money in advance how you wanna live your life. And so that's the greatest way to ensure that you're living the life that you deserve. I hope people won't change their mindset about money about budgets and start looking at it like that.

Cause I think that that's a way that I have to personally reframe. It's not just a way to track transactions, it's a way to kind of ensure that. What my financial goals are, or just my lifestyle goals, they're being met. So, yeah. And planning your future,

[00:27:25] Trace: right? Yes. Yeah, and I, you know, I find hands down people do not realize how much they are spending on certain things.

If I ask the average person, how much do you spend a month on eating out, they would give me a number, and they are probably off by a tremendous amount if we went through all their statements and found out how much they really spent. , they would be shocked. And that's why it's so important to stay on top of that stuff, because I'm not telling you, you have to eat out less.

I'm gonna tell you, did you realize this is how much you spent on it? And do you have other things that you would like to do that might be more important than eating out that often? And if you could take a couple hundred bucks away from eating out every month and put it towards that other thing you wanna do, how would that feel?

And then they can make their choice. I don't care what their choice is, but you can't. A good choice if you don't have the base inform. ,

[00:28:18] Naseema: that is a hundred percent important because it's not about deprivation. You could afford pretty much anything, but you can't afford everything. And so it's prioritizing those things that are important to you, that are gonna make the biggest impact in your life and, and then make it seem like you're living your life by design and not based off of, you know, deprivation.

So I.

[00:28:42] Trace: If having an $8 coffee every single day is important to your existence, then by all means you should do it. Yes. But if you were the kind of person who said, you know what, if I did that twice a week, I would feel like I was treating myself and I could use those five other days of the $8 coffee towards X, Y, or z.

I just want them to, to make that choice from an informed place

[00:29:07] Naseema: exactly about, it's all about making informed decisions and so I love it. I wanna end on a high note and I wanna talk about like a success story. That has came out of working with you or using your divorce money guide cuz people, people need encouragement.

I feel like we've been like blasting them with like worst case scenarios, but there is hope in all of this and I really feel like it's a, a, this is to be used for empowerment and education and not like, as like these devastating stories to get you down.

[00:29:42] Trace: Well that's exactly it. I mean, you know, I talk a lot about fraud.

Always fear that people are walking away thinking I'm saying, you know, everybody's got fraud and everyone should be paranoid. And, and that's not really where I want to approach this from. I really want it to be about empowerment and just understanding your money, whether it's good or bad. And so I recently had a case with a client who was convinced that her husband was doing something shady with the money, and she had.

Examples of things that she thought were bad and she was saying, when I look at what we've been making, and I look at what's in our accounts now that we're getting divorced. There is a mismatch to me. We should have a lot more in the accounts. So I went through and did all of the workup, you know, figuring out where the money had gone for the last three years, and all of the money was actually accounted for.

And it was accounted for honestly, through choices that she was making with her spending, and she was not happy to hear that , however, She was ultimately okay with. She needed to know. Yeah. One way or another. She needed to know, and she had a concern that her husband was wasting money and, and hiding money somewhere, or maybe even had a girlfriend somewhere.

None of that was the case, but she knew when we got done with it, she knew what was going. And so she had comfort to move forward in her divorce.

[00:31:08] Naseema: Yeah, and the thing is, sometimes you just need to know so you can fix the problem. And obviously like she had no idea that , that it was ultimately her. But that's a start, a good starting point and also.

It sound like she got a lot of peace of mind in knowing that, you know, even though they were going through a divorce, he was still doing right with the money. And so that is . That is a good story because gives her a place to start. In coming out of that situation because if you don't know what needs to be fixed, it's hard to work on it.

Right. So. Right. I'm glad that she discovered that and hopefully she'll do better in going forward with her finances, so that's really nice. So, if people want to work with you or get access to the Divorce Money Guide how can they. ,

[00:32:00] Trace: they can go to my website fraud coach.com because I am your fraud coach , and they can find the Divorce Money Guide in my other products there.

But even more importantly, I know that there are people who are listening to this who maybe do have concerns about what their spouse has been doing with the money. , but they don't know. Am I being paranoid? Am I minimizing what they're doing? If you go to fraud coach.com, at the very top of the page, there is a link to do the red flag assessment.

It's 15 questions. It'll take you three or four minutes to get through. It's gonna ask you some questions about how you and your partner have managed the money together and maybe about some things you've seen in the marriage, some ways that money has been spent, things like that When you get through.

I will return to you my assessment of how concerned you should be and what some next steps are that you might take regarding your financial situation.

[00:32:55] Naseema: Wow, that sounds like a great assessment. . I would even take that if I'm like interested in like partnering with someone, just like to kind of see what kind of questions to ask and drive conversation around that.

So I love that you have those resources. And I really feel like this conversation. Has been super beneficial. It's been beneficial to me and I really know that it's bene been. I really know that has been beneficial to my listeners and I just wanna take the time to thank you so much for imparting so much wisdom.

It's one thing to put out these statistics that are discourage you from being in relationships, and then that's another thing to give you actually actual tools to use in order to make sure that you're protecting yourself financially. And so I'm super grateful that you put this together, but even more grateful for.

Taking time out and sharing with our community because these are things that we really need to hear and stories that we really need to start talking more openly about because it is so prevalent. But I don't wanna just talk about it. I wanna give you tools and resources about it, and I feel like this is an excellent tool that you put together and you have so many resources on your website and I just appreciate you being here and sharing with our audience.

[00:34:16] Trace: Well, thank you for inviting me and giving me an opportunity to talk about what I'm inputting out there in the universe. You know, all I ever wanted to do was help people. Too many people are being told there's nothing they can do if they suspect something has been going on with the money, or they're being told, you need a forensic accountant, and then they find out they can't afford it.

And so I just wanted. Give an alternative to people and to let them know you can understand more about your money if you're getting divorced or even thinking about it.

[00:34:47] Naseema: Yes. And thank you for putting all this stuff together. And in the show notes, there'll be a link for you to get access to the Divorce Money Guide.

There'll be a link for you to get access to the Divorce Money Guide at a discount. So make sure that you check that link out. Make sure that you're following Tracy on all her social medias@thefraudcoach.com. And use these resources proactively if you're going through a divorce.

Or if you're just entering into a situation and you want to have informed conversations around finances and planning ahead when it comes to sharing finances. So again, thank you so much, Tracy. This has been amazing and I know people have gained a lot of insight from our conversation. It

[00:35:40] Trace: was great being here.

Thanks so much.

Hey there I’m Naseema

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