Taking Stock of Your Life and Money - Episode 10

What if you spent the greater part of your life studying and training to be a doctor only to find out, medicine isn’t for you? Our guest Jordan Grumet aka Doc G, shares how he unintentionally found his way to financial independence. He discusses the lessons he’s learned about life and what really matters inspired by his years as a hospice doctor. Learn about how he was able to turn his career into a passion so that retirement is truly optional. 

About our guest:

Jordan Grumet was born in Evanston, Illinois in 1973. His interest in becoming a doctor was ignited when his father, an oncologist, died unexpectedly in the prime of life. This profound loss not only inspired him to practice medicine, it has given him a unique perspective as a financial expert, challenging him to think deeply and critically about concepts like wealth, abundance, and financial independence.

After graduating from the University of Michigan, Jordan received his medical degree from Northwestern University, and began practicing Internal Medicine in Northbrook, Illinois. He currently is an associate medical director at Journeycare Hospice.

After years of blogging about financial independence and wellness, Jordan launched the Earn & Invest podcast in 2018. In 2019 he received the Plutus Award for Best New Personal Finance Podcast and was nominated in 2020 and 2021 for Best Personal Finance Podcast of the year. His book, Taking Stock: A Hospice Doctor’s Advice on Financial Independence, Building Wealth, and Living a Regret-Free Life was published by Ulysses Press in August 2022.

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TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Naseema: Welcome back to the podcast, financially Intentional Community. Super honored to have my good friend, g Jordan.

[00:00:38] Naseema: The earning and best podcast, which I have been on several times, and I have been honored to be on there and talk about different issues in regards to personal finance and also being a nurse and, you know, the pandemic and all of those fun things. So, It is my extreme pleasure to welcome you, G on my podcast, and I wanna talk about, in particular, this book that she wrote, this amazing book that she wrote.

So first of all, welcome.

[00:01:13] Jordan: Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here and become more financially intentional.

[00:01:19] Naseema: Hey, that's all of our goals. Me too,

But I think you have an incredible. Journey. Incredible story. And I just wanna share, like, I want you to share a little bit of your background. Like how did you go from being, and is actually a Doctor , but a doctor and then transitioning into the space of personal finance and now becoming an author, like, walk us Down that like journey that she.

[00:01:54] Jordan: Well, I've wanted to be a doctor since as far back as I can remember. My father was a doctor, an oncologist, or cancer doctor. He died suddenly when I was seven years old. And you know, when you're a seven year old kid, you think that everything has to do with you. You look at the world through your own lens.

And so when he died, I thought it was me. I did something wrong. Of course I didn't. He had a brain aneurysm. It was not something any of us could have foresaw. But for me, I looked for answers of how could I make up for this horrible thing that happened. And I decided sometime when I was very young that the way to make up for this was I was gonna become a doctor like him.

I was gonna step into his shoes, I was gonna do the things that he never could do because he died so early. and that created this great sense of purpose in my life, and it was very joyful actually from a, a young age. This was always what I wanted to do. I tackled school voraciously. I went to college and then eventually medical school, and I felt like this is what I was put on this earth to do, which was all great until I started practicing and realized that maybe this was my father's dream and not as much my dream.

I got burned out very quickly. The administrative work, the just dealing with people's lives and the worries about malpractice and all those things that burned doctors out hit me full force and I started to think about how do I get out of this life? . So I started thinking, how can I not practice anymore?

And of course I said, well, how are you gonna make money? How are you gonna make a living? What that led to is me starting to think about, well, how much money do I need not to work again? Because I had never thought about what else could I do for a living. It was like, I need enough money so I don't have to work.

I had no answer to that question. I asked all the people around me. I asked my accountant, I asked my financial advisor, and they all came up with these astronomical numbers that made no sense, and I was nowhere near them. . And in 2014 I happened to be writing a medical blog about practicing and life. And this guy named Jim Dolly, the white coat investor, called me and asked if I would review his book for my medical blog.

And I read his book and it gave me the financial vocabulary to understand money and what enough really looks like. Cuz I had never really had a great calculation of what enough money looks like. And I realized right away that I actually had enough money to quit that day. Like I could leave medicine and be done with it, which was great, except I found myself excited for about a moment or two, and then I had a panic attack because I realized that if I'm not defining myself as a doctor, the only thing I've ever striven to do my whole life, who the heck am I.

And so what came next was not me leaving medicine. It was not me doing anything hasty. I actually spent the next bunch of years trying to figure out who I am, what life is about, and what does this mean to be financially independent. I started a blog to write about it. It was like I. An online diary where I could talk about all that was going on in my head.

That eventually led to a podcast and I started subtracting out the things from the workplace I didn't like. So I left my practice. I stopped working in nursing homes. Eventually I stopped doing nights and weekends. What I was left with, Was consulting for hospice in which I worked 10 to 15 hours a week, and that was perfect.

That was the part of medicine that I would do, even if no one was paying me for it. And so that's how I knew that that was a big part of my purpose, even though being a doctor wasn't anymore. But now I had all this free time, so I started filling it in with things like blogging and podcasting. I started doing things I really loved to do, which were different forms of communication and creation.

And I started a podcast called Earn and Invest. And on that podcast I didn't wanna talk about how we become financially independent. Cause so many people had covered that well already. But I wanted to figure out what do we do once we are financially independent? What does it all mean? How do we then live a purposeful life?

And I was having all these intense financial conversations and realizing the answers to the questions I was looking for. I wasn't getting from financial people, I was actually learning them from my hospice patients who were confronted with their own mortality and realizing they only had a short period of time to live.

And they were saying these stupendous things like, I really regret that I didn't X, Y, or Z, and none of those things had to do with money, and none of those things had to do with work or promotions. They all had to do with the simple things that we strive towards in life and put off because they're too scary for us.

And so that led me to write a book. I said, wow, the answers I need about my financial questions are all coming from my hospice patients. I've never seen anyone write a book about this before. I've never seen anyone really focus more on things like purpose, identity, and connections, the things I was learning from taking care of the terminal ill.

And so that led me to writing this book.

[00:06:30] Naseema: Wow. , just that journey. And I just had so, like, so many lip bulbs, but. , how does one, okay. First of all, to become a doctor, it takes so many years. And then to finally like be in practice and have met that goal and then having a realization that this is not what you wanna do, had to be devastating, like emotionally because the, the sunk cost right.

Is so great. So to. Admit that out loud, even though I know so many people feel like that. To be able to admit that out loud had to be like one of those things that was really, really hard to do. I, I know I felt it, it was tangible for me because, I mean, I, I changed my careers, but it was really early on and I definitely didn't invest so much time.

But I definitely know that identity piece, especially when you're working towards something for so long. And now who are you? Because often when we introduce ourselves, we introduce our. by what we do and not necessarily who we are. And if you can't introduce yourself as a doctor, after you spend tons of years becoming a doctor, then who are you really?

So I just like when you said that, I like felt it, but then to be able to go back and dissect out what it was you didn't like about your job, and then find those things that made. acceptable for you, so that, that you're saying that you would do it even if you weren't getting paid. Like, I feel is great.

And I, I feel the same way about nursing too. Like, and healthcare, because, I mean, we're both in healthcare, but I, I understand that piece. I mean, I did start off pre-med and then I realized what doctors did and I was like, that's not what I wanna do. And, and not no offense, but it just didn't align with what I.

I was gonna do in healthcare, which was more around access, accessibility to care. And so that's why I went into healthcare administration, like, okay, maybe I can't make a difference that way. Then when I went into healthcare administration, I learned it's more about numbers and finance unless about people.

And, but I, I saw what the, what my colleagues did who were nurses, and I was like, I wanna do. And so I, so same thing, like worked at this, had a master's degree, did fellowships and like spent all this time becoming this person and you know, getting all these accolades. and then being like, I don't wanna do that.

And I remember people thinking like, oh, she must be having a mental breakdown, or She must be at Ralph Bottom, or something is like really wrong. But I was like, no, everything is really right because I'm at a point where I know that I'm not gonna continue to do something that does not serve me. And so that, that just ran from my mind when, when you were speaking about your story.

But another thing that really got me was the way that we were taught about our. Careers and making money and actually making a living and what it takes, I dunno about you, Jordan, but I was taught that you go to school, you work and you get a pension or retirement and then that's it. I didn't know about this community that existed where.

retirement is not an age. It's a number. And if you got that number, if you figured out that number and then figured out how to accelerate getting there, then you can retire or you can retire whenever, or it can look different and you don't have to retire. Like you said. Now you now you've taken out all those parts of being a doctor that you don't.

and so you can do it forever. And the same thing for me, like I can be a nurse forever because I don't have to put up with the BS and all the other stuff because I choose not to. And if I, and if it does come up, I can walk away. But that comes with financial independence and those are numbers and they're not ages.

And so, but nobody, nobody teaches. Nobody teaches this. It's almost, it's like this aha, this awakening, and then you find this movement around it. And I've find it very interesting that you were looking for answers, but the answer came to you in a crazy way. And I was just like, like, oh my God. So you were asked to review this book and having no idea about the fire community or anything.

And I know you said you read it and you were like, okay, cool. But it didn't immediately change. , like the way you were moving, like what really switched, what really flipped that switch in you to like make you start working towards financial independence.

[00:11:45] Jordan: So it was a really slow. Switch. That was the beginning, right?

That was the knowledge. But one thing I've found, and I found this often with finances is knowledge is one thing in action is another. And often they don't necessarily equate. So getting the knowledge prepared me with the tools to understand my finances, and I was lucky enough that I was already in such good financial shape that I could consider myself financially independent already.

So I had done all these good things that my parents had modeled for me. I had invested in the stock market, I had owned real estate, I had owned my own business. So there were things that I did that set me up for this, not because I knew what I was doing, it was because I was following my parents' lead.

So when I got there, I was lucky enough to be in that position, but the emotional journey took a lot more time. Right. So the intellectual journey happened within a few hours of reading the book. The emotional journey was something I wasn't ready for because this was one of the only connections I had with my father who died when I was a little boy, and I was about to walk away from that identity that connected me to him.

But the other thing is, I had had this negative self-talk for years about how being a doctor is something you do for a living. I had. Things I love to do. I love to blog. I love to public speak, all these things that now actually I identify myself as. But back then I would look at these things and say, well, you don't do those for a living.

Those are things you do as hobbies or things you do on the side. So it took me years to actually work through that emotionally. And part of that was the blogging, the accountability journal that I put out in the world. There was a time when I was actually putting out a blog post every day. and each of those blog posts was something in depth.

I was thinking about money and how it related to my life. So this online accountability started as me writing and journaling, but ended me in taking action. And so it was a process, a process that took time. Now, I will tell you, That process started in about 2014, 2015. By 2018, I had given up almost everything, but not all.

And in 2018, I was hit with a malpractice suit, which was frivolous, completely frivolous malpractice suit. And that was finally the, the straw that broke the camel's back. When I was like, okay, I am now out. I'm getting rid of everything except what I love. That lawsuit was filed in 2018. It was just dismissed a few weeks ago.

What? So we're talking, you know, five years later of depositions and all this kind of stuff, and I eventually found out that the lawyer was pretty much trying to use me as leverage to get the nursing home to pay more money, because ultimately I didn't do anything. . But the emotional toll that took on me was kind of that thing and said, okay.

I had always told myself, I said, if I ever get sued, I'm leaving medicine. I said this from the beginning and I was lucky enough to have a 20 something year career without ever being sued. And then I finally was, and I'm like, I'm out. And I kind of, I had set that as a bar. And even though most doctors today now get sued just because if you work long enough, something's bound to happen.

. didn't want that to stand in the way of me doing what I did well. But that was kind of that last, that was like when, you know, you know, and that was when I knew

[00:15:06] Naseema: I don't going through depositions and all that stuff, I don't think people understand how grueling and how hard that was and, Five years going back and forth and having this peace of your life being unsettled is in itself like really, really unsettling. So I'm glad that that's over. Wow.

Congratulations on that. Just being over. .

[00:15:27] Jordan: There also is, and people don't realize this, for doctors, there's a financial aspect because one of the leverage pieces that prosecuting attorneys have is they tend to threaten to sue you for more than your malpractice limits. So for most doctors, they have a 2 million per year, 1 million per incident.

So if you were sued for more than a million dollars, You've outrun your liability insurance and then they go after your personal assets. So anyone who's worried about their money, if you get sued for 5 million as a doctor, you're more than not likely gonna have to pay 4 million out of your personal assets, not related to your business.

They can come after your house. They can come after in some states, your retirement, they can come after all your personal assets. So it's actually a very scary thing financially. Now, that doesn't happen often. We're talking about less than 1% of malpractice suits, but who even wants to think about that, right?

[00:16:21] Naseema: No, but it's still a stressor because it's still a possibility. Like who wants to be that 1%? Even if you know you don't, do you, you didn't do anything wrong, it's still like you're, you're still going through this process and man, That's hard and going through my own legal process, which started about the same time.

I understand how grueling that can be. Man, that's hard, but. That was it for you, ? I was done as far as privacy. But you, you still are a doctor, but you consult now for hospice? For a hospice facility, correct?

[00:16:58] Jordan: I do. So it's a hospice company and I work about 10 to 15 hours a week, and I don't actually see patients anymore.

Most of it is supervising nurses, chaplains, social workers, et cetera. So they come to me with medical questions and I help them resolve them, or I'm the main prescriber for a lot of the pain medicine, things like that for the hospice.

[00:17:16] Naseema: Do you, do you like chart reviews for nurse

[00:17:17] Jordan: practitioners? I actually don't need to do that.

I do some of that actually on the side. So I consult with some nurse practitioner medical practices cuz Illinois nurse practitioners can practice on their own, but they need a physician supervisor on some level. Um, Most of what I do now is easy and I don't have to get very emotionally involved in it, but it has a big impact not just on the patients, but actually what a great part of my job is.

I get to make the nurses, chaplain, social workers, and certified nursing assistants, I get to make their lives better and easier. I give them the frontline support they need to do their jobs. And if you know people who work in hospice these are salt of the earth people who are there for people's most difficult moments.

And I get to support those people. Like when I, they text me with a question and I answer immediately or I sign a prescription immediately. All these things that are fairly easy for me, but it makes their lives a million times easier, which translates into better patient care and people having a little bit more comfort at the end of life.

And so that feels very meaningful to me, but it actually doesn't take a huge emotional investment or even a huge time investment.

[00:18:22] Naseema: That's great. I love it. That warms my heart cause I cannot do hospice like me. Don't go together very well. I'm more about bringing life into the world. But you know, it happens sometimes, but I know the kind of people who work in hospice and man their hearts.

Oh. But I think the. Big lesson that you learned and that you ha like after having hundreds and hour of hours of interviews, after studying, reading and listening to tons of personal finance content, you learned the biggest lessons from your hospice patients. Can you share like some of those lessons and what they taught you just about life in general?

So

[00:19:14] Jordan: let me tell you kind of the outline of the ideas behind the book and what the general lesson from the book is cuz I think it very much relates. Basically what I really learned is that we have to start working on our own purpose, identity, and connections before we get to our financials, our finances.

Once we know what's important to us, we can then build a financial framework around it. We can then strive to things towards financial independence. And if we do this correctly, it'll learn to lead to better connections in our life and we'll feel more sense of community. So what did the hospice patients teach me?

Well, they taught me that when they were on their deathbed, they regretted not having the energy, courage, or time to do those things that were important to them. And it wasn't about making money and it wasn't working nights and weekends, and it wasn't what their job title was. It was those things that they felt on the inside that they always wanted to do, or those people that they always wanted to connect with or those relationships that they always wanted to fix that they never had the courage to do.

And what they did is, what we all do is they endlessly put it off. They put it off till they were less busy. They put it off till retirement. They put it off till they had enough money or till they finally reached a plateau in their career. There were all these reasons. They put those things off and you get to the end of life and realize I've been putting off the important stuff for so long that now I've been given a terminal diagnosis and I only have a certain number of weeks or months to do that, and I just found it so amazing that we can take that message and bring it to young and healthy people and say, you know, , you don't know when your last days are gonna be, but you will regret it if you don't start thinking about those things that are meaningful to you now and pursuing them.

And as much as I'm part of the financial industry, As much as I'm interested in personal finance, it's not money. That's one of those things. It's usually what you can use money as a tool to do, but not necessarily that money is the only tool, right? So it's those hobbies, those life work that we wanna do.

It's again, those people we wanna connect with. Those are the really important things, and so why not start focusing on those now way before we're on our death?

[00:21:20] Naseema: I love that. And I think there's a quote in your book where you talk about, you know, being in pursuit of wealth so much that you forget that money is just a tool and That's super true.

I think a lot of people think about acquiring wealth for all the things or the power that it can bring to them, but really it's about control over your life. It's really about the things you don't have to do and the things that you get to do because you are at a place where money isn't a big concern.

And that's one of the things that I had to learn on this. because you know, you can get caught up in chasing these numbers and then kind of get lost in, well, why are you doing it? And speaking of just like the things that I had to go through and being in healthcare is like my big why became, , I'm in this position because I can walk away.

I can advocate for my patients and not be in fear of losing my job because I'm in a position where I'm financially stable. And so I'm gonna do the things that most people can't, and that's speaking up. And that's why, you know, I encourage a lot of nurses to become financially independent because it puts you in a.

where you can truly be a patient advocate. And I know that's where most of our hearts lie and that's why we, why we get into the profession, but then we get caught up in other things. Especially if you're not in a place financially is something that a lot of people can't bring themselves to do.

[00:22:59] Jordan: Yeah.

Yeah. And that's what I think is amazing is like when I take a story like yours, What that says to me is part of your purpose is being an advocate. And our problem is we spend so much time thinking about money, we forget that things like being an advocate part of our true identity is actually what we need to strive for.

But now knowing what you know, you can then put money in the right perspective and say, how can I then build a financial framework about around being an advocate? Because that's what truly makes me feel purposeful. But let me provide myself with the tools I need, which in your case is the ability to walk away at any given time so that you can truly advocate for people without worrying about the consequences.

And, and that's the whole goal, right? It's not money for money's sake, because if it's money for money's sake, you get to your money goals and you find yourself like, well, what now? Well, now I need double, right? Because you have no goals once you reach that goal. , but when your goal is something that's more identity and purpose driven, like for me it was being a communicator for you, it's being an advocate.

I can then start really looking at my finances and saying, okay, what role do I want them to play in my life and how can they allow me to move further in those things that are important to me? Yeah,

[00:24:11] Naseema: I really love that. But it's like kind of philosophical, right? Because then you come back to like this whole purpose of.

Conversation and it kind of puts you in this place where you're thinking about, well, what am I put on earth for, right? Mm-hmm. , and then it kind of leads you, you know, down that path of like, Like introspection and really trying to think like, why are you here? And I like that. But then I can see also a lot of people getting stuck on that and not actually doing the work that it takes to actually get to the place where they need to be.

And so I like what you said earlier, there's this intellectual part of learning about money, but then there's a action that has to take place and lucky for you. Your parents taught you? Those things early on for me, it was different. I didn't learn about money and I, I mean, I knew how to make money , but I didn't learn about building wealth or, you know, just even creating just a, a stable like nest egg for myself until my late thirties.

But can you talk about some of those lessons that were instilled in you? .

[00:25:24] Jordan: My parents were incredibly good financial models, right? So they did a little bit of everything. I mean, they practiced frugality, so they would pretty much had lots of money, but only would really buy things that were meaningful to them, right?

So they didn't spend, for spending's sake, they saved a huge percent of their incomes. I mean, I think my parents saved 50% of their incomes, most of their lives. They understood things like side hustles. My stepdad was a c e O of a major healthcare company, but you know what he did on the side? He used to sell coins and he had his own mail order coin business for for decades because it was something he enjoyed.

But not only that, but they owned real estate like they used to manage real estate. They. At one point had 14 or 15 doors. So they kind of just modeled a lot of this great information. And they always, they always invested. I mean, I remember as a little kid back in the day when we didn't have computers as much, I remember my stepdad looking through the newspaper at the different stock quotes, right?

So this was part of my upbringing and I think all of those good financial habits, I learned from seeing so that when I got to that age again, it was not that I was as intentional as I was just doing what my parents did. Right? I saved a lot of money cuz they saved a lot of money. I invested in the stock market cuz that's what you did, right?

I bought real estate because of course, why wouldn't I buy real estate? Like I should be a landlord like my mom and stepdad. So these were kind of things that I think they all modeled for me. Not everyone is lucky to get that modeling. I mean, I. in some senses. I grew up in a place of huge privilege cuz I had these really great financial models.

And we also grew up in a very middle, upper class family. So I, I'm, you know, I, I very much acknowledge this fact that I started in a very good place. But that doesn't mean if you don't start in such a good place that you can't learn some of this information and start some of these habits too.

That's the wonderful thing about personal finance, and you and I both know this. If you can get past the mental hur hurdle of, can I do this or not? And get to the point where mentally you say, I can do this. The next step is doing a little studying and reading, and we all know you can learn the basics of personal finance in a very short period of time.

With some concerted effort. Like it's not hard to learn how to invest. It's not hard to learn how to save. It's not hard to even learn how to side hustle and those kind of things. You just need to believe you can do it and once you get to that point, you may not have as easy of a time as I had, right?

You might not start where I started, but you'll end up in a much better place than you started, no question.

[00:28:00] Naseema: No question. And that is true. Like I said, I started really late, but it didn't take me long to get to where I was in a financially stable place. Just a couple of years. So it sounds like you really lucked up with two great dads.

But I wanna talk about like your dad passing away so early, and besides that, you know, being a motivating factor for you to be a doctor did that change your per perspective just on life and death?

[00:28:31] Jordan: Oh, it certainly did, and I mean, it's no mistake that I ended up in hospice care when I started medical school.

The first thing I did in my first week of medical school is I volunteered for the inpatient hospice unit. And the reason why is I had dealt with death and dying, but there was no one there to help us then. And my dad died very quickly, so it's not like he was part of hospice or anything. So I grew up with this empathy towards death and dying and maybe even a certain amount.

Being comfortable with it where other people wouldn't because that was my reality. Interestingly enough, you know, I think a lot about what the effect of my father dying on me was. And I'm fairly convinced that one of the big differences between people who are generally happy and people who aren't happy are the stories they tell themselves about their own past.

So for me, I've always tried to tell myself a more magical and triumphant story of my past as opposed to a sad one. So when I look at my father dying, I choose to look at it as it built in me a sense of empathy and drive that allowed me to become a doctor, even though that. Ultimately what I wanted to do with my life, it allowed me to become a doctor and touch many people's lives.

And I don't know if I would've had that if he hadn't died. So of course, I would never wish that on myself. I would rather that he had lived to a long age and I had him as part of my life. But my interpretation is that led to who I became and or who I've become. And I'm fairly happy and comfortable with that.

And so that's the way I choose to look at it. . And so everything about who I am and what I do probably stems somewhat from him dying. Wow. That's

[00:30:07] Naseema: pretty profound and I love it. I, like I said, I. and one of those kind of people that don't deal well with death. And it's kinda one of those things that I choose not to think about, but it's something that all of us have to think about and plan for.

So it's kind of refreshing to see kinda your take. But yeah, it is about the what, the stories that we tell ourselves. And you're an amazing storyteller, , by the way. I love the way you put things together. . And it's so relatable and it's so memorable because of the way that you share just everything that you talk about.

And I, I love how you use your voice to convey messages. And I, you're, you've been a speaker and on different platforms and I've seen you speak on stages. And every time I'm like blown away cause I'm like, how did you even come up with. the way you format your stories. And they're always so unique but super impactful.

And so you definitely have a gift and to know that that was part of your father's influence is, is, is really heartwarming. So I love that .

[00:31:20] Jordan: I feel very lucky that I've found two things that really light me up inside. And one is, and I, I tell people I. I'm a, I do public speaking and I love public speaking, but I'm just like everyone else.

I get anxious and nervous the minute I'm about to step, I'm on the stage. It is not easy actually to do. On the other hand, I'm probably most alive when I'm standing on a stage telling a story. So that, and when I'm in the front of a microphone, podcasting now, those are the two things where I feel incredibly alive doing so.

I feel very lucky. To have some facility for them and to be able to have found this place in life that I can spend my time doing those things. But storytelling is one of my favorite things to do, and so I spend a lot of time, and I've always spent a lot of time trying to think of interesting ways to prevent information in a way that.

Surprises, delights, but also educates. And to do all those three together I think that's what a good storyteller is. And so I continuously strive to be that, and I'm always impressed when I come across storytellers who do that really well. It's definitely one of those things where growing up I was like, I wanna do that.

Thanks, .

[00:32:30] Naseema: Yeah, and I think even in writing, that's what made your book so easy to read, even though like who wants to read about death? Right. But the book is so engaging and just makes you question a lot of things. And it's not one of those books where you're just gonna walk away with a lot of. Answers. It is a book that's just gonna make you just really think about life again.

It's like one of those you know, what is my purpose? What am I here for, and what are really my goals? So I just like that you, it really just got my. Will's turning because I'm like on the opposite ends of the spectrum. Like I'm like either like really fantasy and like trying to like distract myself or it's really like action driven.

You have to do this. And so there's not a lot of that internalizing like, well really who are you are? Who are you and why are you here? And so your book really did that for me, so I appreciate you putting that out there. And I just wanna know like what's up next for you, doc

[00:33:34] Jordan: G? So I've continued to podcast.

I love podcasting, the Earned Invest podcast. We have an episode every Monday and Thursday. I am starting to think about possibly a next book I, I have two things that I'm really, really passionate about. One was writing about personal finance and purpose and identity. I felt like I could write this story in a unique individual way, and that's why I wrote this.

I've been thinking a lot about whether I'd wanna write another book, and I have one other story I'd really love to tell, which is not personal finance at all, but it's about healthcare, about how our system is imploding and why. And I feel like I could tell that story with really deep storytelling about individuals.

About myself, about my own road to burnout, about how third parties are leveraging the doctor-patient relationship to extract money from the system and it's actually ruining our system. I feel like I could write that book and I'm kind of been broing for the last few months about if and how I wanna start that project and in what shape or form I would want it to come out.

But that's really been heavily on my mind and it's, you know, I feel my insides tugging at me telling me I should write that book. But there's some barriers. One is that I've built a brand talking about personal finance, and this is not really a personal finance topic. The other is if I want to go with traditional publishing, there's just a lot of healthcare books out there.

And I don't have specific answers to our healthcare crisis. I have. Much more philosophical answers, which I think are unique. But it's not like I can write a so-called prescription in how to fix our healthcare system. But that's what's been on my mind lately,

[00:35:10] Naseema: man. Write that book. I mean like, cause that hit me because the system is so broken.

Like it is horrible. And you know, we, we know from behind the scenes but a lot of people don't know. They feel the impact of it, but they're still not understanding. And so, Because of how I know you Right. And you speak, I feel like you can really drive some point home, some points home, but again, it's not gonna be prescriptive.

It's more just about like, thinking about it and, and I don't even think there's a, like what is the real solution to the system? Yeah.

[00:35:51] Jordan: So I have some real watching it blow up. Yeah. . Yeah. So I, I've been doing public speaking about medicine for years as part of a physician speaker's bureau. One of my most well received talks is about the intimacy gap between doctors and patients.

So believe it or not, I think the real answer to our healthcare problems is to work on the intimacy gap between doctors and patients with shared storytelling. What I think the big problem we have right now are the only ones that matter in our healthcare system are those who give care, which are the doctors, nurses, social workers, chaplains, et cetera.

And then those who receive care, which are the patients. And until we come together as allies and start starting to build on the grassroot change that needs to happen. , until we work together, we'll never be a big enough force to change our political system. So my answer is we've gotta learn how doctors and patients and nurses and chaplains and social workers, and PTs and OTs and all the HE caregivers and the people who receive healthcare, we have to become allies again and then fight for the system together.

And. My way of dealing with that is actually through shared storytelling. We need to kind of get rid of that intimacy gap. Patients come into the doctor's office and unload the most difficult, intimate, and embarrassing things, and we, as he caregivers, generally stare at them. Plain faced, don't say a word.

Maybe comfort them a little bit. But most patients don't know our stories, so that doesn't mean we need to sit in the exam room and tell them what we're going through today. But on a larger level, in social media and in the press, we need to start talking about what it feels like to be caregivers and the stresses we deal with and are utter and intimate worries about our patients.

Cuz I think only then will they see that we're actually all on the same side.

[00:37:35] Naseema: Yes, I love that. But I think there's this fear around it, right? There's this fear about sharing your story because as healthcare providers, we're supposed to be superhuman. And I think there's that just general perception. And of course, we're not like, we're, we're patients too.

Yeah.

[00:37:55] Jordan: And

[00:37:57] Naseema: and I just wish people would kind of take us off this pedestal that we didn't wanna want, we don't wanna be on. So I'm here for the book and I also wanna say that, you know, even though you built up this huge personal finance platform, what I find is that when I share those stories that are outside of the.

Is when I get the most response and the most attention because so many people are thirsty for that information and they are, like I said, they're feeling these things, but they don't necessarily know how to verbalize them. or they don't see the picture as we see them. And so it's important for us to share our sides.

And so I strongly encourage you to step outside of this. The boundaries are superficial. And just share because we need this, we need this book. And so I'm super looking forward to it. And so people can find that, right? Hopefully soon people can find that right alongside taking Stock . And where can people find the book and reach out and connect with

[00:39:03] Jordan: you?

So the easiest way is to go to my main website, which is Jordan grommet.com. That's J O R D A N G R U M E t.com. There is kind of a hub for all the things I create online. So you can learn about the book, you can learn about my medical blog, you can learn about my financial blog, and you can learn about the Earn and Invest podcast.

Otherwise you go to earn and invest.com. Taking stock, a hospice, doctor's advice on financial independence, building wealth, and living a regret. Free life is available anywhere Books are sold. Easiest ways to go online, find it on Amazon.

[00:39:36] Naseema: Awesome. Well, it's has been my pleasure, Jordan. It's always good to have a conversation with you, and I always learn something new.

Every time I talk to you, you're just so full of surprises, but I cannot wait for my listeners to connect with you and read your book and listen to the, to your podcast as well. But I wanna thank you so much for joining me online.

[00:39:59] Jordan: Thank you for having me on the show.

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