This Nurse is Asking For What She Deserves - Ep. 52
Dorianne St Fleur shares the hard truths about why we aren’t equally compensated in the workforce. She shares practical tips to empower us to get paid our worth.
Dorianne St Fleur is an HR leader, Diversity & Inclusion strategist, and career & leadership coach who turns professional women of color into paid and prominent corporate powerhouses.Dorianne is the founder of Your Career Girl, a digital career development agency for women of color, and the creator of the career development podcast, Deeper than Work, which has been recognized by BuzzFeed as one of “27 Podcasts You Need To Start Listening To.” She has been featured in Black Enterprise, Working Mother, Forbes, Fast Company and The Muse.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Naseema McElroy (00:00): All right. Nice is on Rire. We have the pleasure of being joined by Dorian St. Fleur of Your Career Girl. Hey Dorianne.
Dorianne St Fleur (00:10): Hey, Naseema. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.
Naseema McElroy (00:13): Oh, it is my pleasure. Absolutely because you are a wealth of knowledge when it comes to leveling up in your career. And I wanted to bring you on to share some tips, to empower people, to be able to get paid, what they're worth, because there is a huge race gap. The majority of my audience is women, but women of color specifically, and just provide some tools for what we can do to mitigate some of the differences in salary that we're seeing. And I think the time is right to do that. Considering a lot of the things that have been going on just globally. So share a little bit of your background and how you started your career girl.
Dorianne St Fleur (00:54): Yeah, so y'all can be a girl has been around for five and a half years now at this point, I still can't believe it's been so long. And it started basically because I was on my own journey in my career. And most of my career, I had many human resources. I've done a lot of things there and I was looking for help with my own career. I was at crossroads, what do I do next? What am I good at is all of these questions I had. And it was over Christmas breaks. I had two weeks off from work and I was visiting my mom. And I was like, let me sign it from your coach. And I looked online. I typed in career coaches for black women. I think career coaches for women. And all I could find were like middle aged white women from like the Midwest.
Dorianne St Fleur (01:30): And there's nothing wrong with them obviously, but I wanted to talk about what it meant to the women in corporate or women in the things that we face. And I just really felt like I couldn't, they wouldn't be able to get me or understand that. And so I said, you know, you've been in HR for 10 years. You are doing really well at this. You've helped other people with their careers. You've done well in your own. I literally just had that moment. And I created an Instagram account, created a website and the rest is history. Literally I made a decision in a day that I was going to start a business, not knowing what it meant, what it entails, what the journey would be like, but I just knew that there's a void and I need to fill it. And so your career girl was born, had a different name back then, but it eventually morphed into what this is now. And basically it's a leadership and career development platform for women of color. So I help women really understand their value, their impact, and their power and use all of that to get paid, to get raises, to get opportunities, to become thought leaders to just level in their whole career.
Naseema McElroy (02:28): That's awesome. That's awesome. And I know you yourself have made some tremendous strides in your career. And can you share some of the wins you've been able to have personally?
Dorianne St Fleur (02:39): Yeah, I think the biggest win was probably most recently I got a job offer at Google and so I was working there for a year. That was huge. You know, you hear Google, it's this big company and it's hard to get in and get like millions of applications every single year and only accept a small subset of that. So I really felt like, wow, I have a ride. Am I getting a job offer there? So that was a huge win. I transitioning from operations where I started my career into HR was another big one. HR was something that I didn't know at the time, but it ended up being like my calling, not to sound cheesy I'm in the corporate world. And so I was so happy to be able to transition into there and do well. I've worked for some amazing companies, have had great successes, been promoted, raises all that good stuff. I'm really enjoyed a really fulfilling career. Definitely had his low points, toxic environments, man, bosses being laid off. But overall, when I look at it, it's just been an opportunity for me to leverage my skills, my experience, my education, and do work that can be proud of and make an impact doing it.
Naseema McElroy (03:32): Yeah. And then super proud of you as recently, you've been able to take those skills and all the things that you've been able to experience in your career to start your own consulting company. So kudos to you for that.
Dorianne St Fleur (03:44): The new list of milestone in my career, I'm doing full time. Now I'm doing this work with your career growth, as well as doing some diversity and inclusion consulting. I'm full time on my own. So thank you.
Naseema McElroy (03:54): So what do you think are some of the things that hold women aren't women of color, especially back in the workforce?
Dorianne St Fleur (04:01): I think it boils down to a few things. I think just first we're not necessarily taught those cheat codes that a lot of other demographics are taught. So things like it matters about who, you know, I know we hear, it's not what you know, it's who, you know, but we kind of say it and keep it moving, but no, no seriously, it's not what you know, it's who, you know. And so really focusing on building a network and not just a network of this random people, but strategically thinking, as I think about the goals of my career, who do I need to know who needs to know me? How can building this relationship, help me get to where I need to go, how I swallow my pride and just put myself out there. I think those are some skills that we don't. It doesn't necessarily, it's not, not.
Dorianne St Fleur (04:37): I know for me, we did not. I did not learn at the dinner table about networking and making sure I was on this board and doing this is not what we spoke about itself. I think that is one thing that's holding us back is not having the right networks. I think another thing that's holding us back is not asking for help. It's kind of related to the first one, but part of being a black woman, part of being a woman of color is like, I'm strong and independent. I can do this, which is great, but I think we over index on it and it comes to the point where, so I'm not going to ask anyone for any help at any time, I'm going to just do this all on my own and going to the top of your career, becoming an executive, becoming a senior leader, whatever it is that you want to do, you cannot get there by yourself.
Dorianne St Fleur (05:16): You have to get mentorship, sponsorship to be trained. Coach. All of those things are part of the process. Anyone that you look up to in their career, whether they're an entrepreneur they're in the nine to five, no matter what industry they got there by someone else supporting and helping them. I think the third thing and the most, not most important, but someone is super important to me is about our money. Like we are being held back because we're not asking for what we deserve. We're not asking for favors. We're not asking to like throw me a little, like could you please throw me a bone. We're asking for what we deserve. We work hard. We are efficient. We are creative, we're productive so we should be paid accordingly. And we just don't necessarily have either the confidence or the skills or the knowledge to have this conversation. That's going to result in us getting the kind of money that we need.
Naseema McElroy (06:04): Right? So you have the backend perspective of knowing, you know, what salary ranges are and you know, typically what people accept and what's offered. Can you explain from your perspective, what you see when people typically accept a job?
Dorianne St Fleur (06:22): So it ranges from, Oh my gosh, they just gave me this job. I'm so excited and great. So I'm not gonna rock the boat. Yes, yes, yes. I'll take it too. Oh, how dare they, they're not even budgeting or they've only bunch a little bit. So screw you. I'm not taking this role. And I like to coach people that there's a middle space is a space where you can absolutely negotiate an absolutely try to understand what it is that you should be getting paid, but also being realistic with the expectations as well, and kind of compromising and working with us and with the person. And so I think for the most part, though, people tend to skew on the, I don't wanna rock the boat and I just don't want to go shake. There's so many women that I come in contact with. They didn't work there for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, and they never negotiate it. And there's research out there that shows that black women lose around like a million dollars worth of salary over the course of their career because they're not negotiating. And because, because they're not asking and not commanding, yes, I'm also want to say there are some systemic issues, right? They pay us less on average and all of those things were in lower level roles, et cetera. However, there's also something to be said about owning this process and asking and demanding what it is that you need. I think a lot of us just aren't doing that.
Naseema McElroy (07:32): How do you recommend people go about asking for more money?
Dorianne St Fleur (07:36): I think the first thing is to do your research. I'm sure if we would ask 10 women right now, how many of you feel like you're underpaid? Nine of them would raise their hand if we say, okay, so what should you be paid? They'll give us a blank stare. You need to do research, right. And understand what is the market rate for my role in the level that I'm in, in the industry that I'm in, in the climate that we're in economically, how much is this seat worth? And you want to do that by going on websites. There's so many websites out there is Glassdoor PayScale, salary.com is this new website that I found called 81cents.com. And all of these resources are there to help you understand where you stand in the market. So there's that. And then there's also asking people, and not that you walk up to a person and say, Hey, what's your salary.
Dorianne St Fleur (08:17): But in the course of conversation, as you build your network, Hey, I'm actually applying for this role. The salary is between like 70 and 85. That's what I'm trying to look for is that realistic. And just hearing what they say. And I think it's also important that when we're asking people again, being strategic and who you're asking, don't just ask your friends and the people who look like you, those other, those white males and those white women and those other people like, Hey, this is what I'm thinking. How does that sound to you so that you could get a gauge of what people are making and what's going on there? I think that's the first step is to really do the research. And then you can go about having the actual conversation. Don't go in there, just like, Hey, I think I'm under paid. I want to be making more.
Dorianne St Fleur (08:54): I'm not really how much, but I just know, or just notice, throw out, Oh, I want to be making $20,000 more. Like, where did this come from? I've done my research. I've spoken to other people. I've looked on some websites and this is what I'm thinking I should get. And tell, in addition to the research also grounding it in your values. So I've done the research manager on top of that. I've done X, Y, and Z over the past year. And so, because of all of that, I'm really looking to target $15,000 more in my salary based on what I can't continue based on the value of my brain. I feel like this is until let's have that discussion.
Naseema McElroy (09:29): But what about those people who like me have been told by HR that they shouldn't be discussing their salaries.
Dorianne St Fleur (09:36): That is a lie. So let me explain. First of all, the buyer we're backed by the federal law. I think there was something put into place. It was 1935 or whatever it was for some time that it is not illegal for you to talk about your salary, your manager, can't go out and put a spreadsheet and put all your business out there. But if you want to talk to your coworker and tell your coworker, I'm making $85,000, how much are you making? Let's make sure that this is fair. They can't stop you, but I can tell you, we frowned upon it. We discourage it. They can put a little note in the employee handbook. It is illegal for you to be fired or retaliated against for speaking about your salary. It is your rights. And you're able to do that. This is how the wage gap is able to continue because the person I sit next to doesn't know that I'm making $10,000 more than her.
Dorianne St Fleur (10:22): She can't advocate for herself. She can't talk about it as an HR person. Let me tell you, it's annoying when people talk about salaries, because I asked them to us saying, I want to, so that's why they don't do it, right? It's an irritating, however, it's in your best interest to understand what's going on now. Does everybody want to talk about it now? And so that's why you have any slipping away. You do it and kind of be willing to put yourself out there and see if they'll give you back, whatever, but please don't let your HR manager or anyone tell you that it's illegal or that is against company policy or any of those things. You have the federal law on your side.
Naseema McElroy (10:51): So what, how do you advocate for yourself? If you find out that your coworker doing the exact same job functions that you, the exact same job title is making more than you.
Dorianne St Fleur (11:00): I think you have to be strategic about how you bring it out. So like do not go into your boss's office. Hey, this even told me that she makes this much and it's more than me. That is like, let's not do that. But again, thinking back about having a strategic conversation. So that's one, what price point that's one data point that this person is making money you think about, okay. Are there any difference in degrees? Just because we doing the same thing now, what was her background? And maybe she negotiated when she's saying it. And I did it, and I guess so many factors that go into this. And so really just putting it into perspective, understanding it, doing your research, and then going and having a conversation. And I always, even if one of my friends realized and he figured out that somebody is making more than him, I still don't leave with that.
Dorianne St Fleur (11:38): I don't have to leave with that in the conversation. It's not about this. Person's getting paid more than me. It's about based on the value on the role, based on what I bring to the table. And based on some research that I've gathered, I'm being underpaid by this amount. I don't go in there and like throw people under the bus and say, such and such, told people do it all the time. As an HR person, you have come in and gave me the names of who told them to where they were. But I think more than that, it's not about comparing yourself to anyone else. It's about comparing yourself to the seat, into the roles. And based on this role, I do this, I exceed his expectations. You know, this is what I've done and I need to be compensated for that. And I think something that's important that people should think about too, is that when you're having these conversations, you should already go in there understanding what are you going to do based on the response. And so are you going to have this conversation? And the manager says, great, glad you brought it up, but when changing your salary, and then I get some go back to your desk and just keep working. Are you going to then say, okay, great. Well then I'm going to start my exit strategy and I'm leaving. Be prepared for how you will react based on response and what they say.
Naseema McElroy (12:37): So what are some things people can do if somebody tells them no,
Dorianne St Fleur (12:43): If somebody tells them now, so they've done the research and they know other people are getting paid more than them. I would say the first thing that I would do is probably go to HR. Now I put a little asterisk by that because not everybody's HR department is good. Some of these HR folks are trash. And so they're not going to advocate for you. They're not going to do those things. So feel it out, you know, your company, culture, you know, your company, HR team understand that if they are notorious for not caring about not doing what you need to do, then skip this step. If they are though, I would speak to them. I would say, Hey, if it comes to my attention that I'm not being paid at the same level, as others on my team, doing some other work, I've done my research externally as well as internally.
Dorianne St Fleur (13:18): And based on my performance in use and what I've done, this is what I should be making. I had a conversation with my manager. It did not go well. I'd like to raise this to HR for us to really investigate and look into, like, I know that you all a company who value diversity and equity, and right now you're not having equal pay for equal work. And so I would like to talk about this and understand that any HR person worth their salt is going to pay attention to that kind of way. It's phrased like you're throwing around equity and all these sorts of things are going to be that. And so that could be your course of action. They can do the investigation though. And for whatever reason still say no, then I think it's time for you to make a decision. So you can either go out and find another job, bring that offer back to them and say, Hey, this is when I'm getting this much.
Dorianne St Fleur (13:58): And they may or may not counter you. I've had that in my career before where they say, Nope, we actually not leaving here. We'll match it. Like please. Um, and so you can do that or you can just leave. Like it's a decision you have to make. But again, I think you should be thinking about that before you even have this first conversation, because you want to know how you want to go in there. Not being afraid to walk away. If you've done this research and you've looked this up and they're not telling you what's your work. I know everyone can just jump ship, but at least have your exit strategy in place. They obviously are not valuing what you bring to the table.
Naseema McElroy (14:28): So if you do decide to leave and seek positions elsewhere, what tips do you give people in order to effectively negotiate a salary when they're entering into a new job?
Dorianne St Fleur (14:38): I think this is the place where you get to have the most leverage. So of all the ways that you can get a raise, either from being familiar with it or through the regular annual increases or negotiating internally, the biggest bang for your buck comes from externally. When you go and find me. And so I tell people one, when you're having these conversations, try to avoid talking about salary until you actually have a job, because that's when they like you like put a ring on it. You're like, yes, come and ask me once you. And so now you have room to play with it. If you talk about it too soon, you may price yourself out of it. They may say, Oh no, we can't do that. Or whatever. Or you may pack yourself. Sometimes you put the money down and you say at first and were like, Oh cool. Yeah.
Dorianne St Fleur (15:18): So I cause people to avoid a conversation for as long as possible. Now it's not always possible sometimes. And they're like, Nope, we want to know, tell us, tell us. And then I think you need to be prepared with a range or an actual number that is like your sinusitis number. If you want to be making $70,000 a year and please give us, we need to know this. Don't tell them I want to make it between 65 and 70, right? 70 is your drop dead number. Then say something like I'm looking to target around $75,000 for my next role and let them do what they will. And then you guys can negotiate from there. But that's only if they keep pushing. What I like to tell people to say is, well, I'm really interested in this role right now is in the early stages. I want to know more about you, the company, the role before I talk about money, I hadn't really spoken about it yet.
Dorianne St Fleur (16:04): So can we be visit this money conversation a little further in the process? Most of them will be like, okay, cool. Some of them will still push again, push back just like once a day. It's kind of early on. Not really sure if they keep pushing it and you don't need to keep going backwards and give them your range, but try to prolong the conversation I had. It was salary early on and years like the company they know better, like this is too early for us to talk about it and something that comes up and I know somebody is probably listening and saying, but what if I don't tell them? And I go through this whole process and then it turns out to be too low and I'm wasting my time. I think part of the job search process is to do research ahead. So don't, you're applying for roles that are two levels below what you already are, or companies or organizations that did not do a lot.
Dorianne St Fleur (16:46): You don't have budget, like do your research to understand the kinds of companies and roles and things that you're looking into so that you can make an informed decision. I also advocate for people not to be applying blindly, like applies to your network so you can get some insight information, Hey, ain't even realistic at this place. Like what did they do? And be like, Oh no, no, no. We get paid way lower than that. Then you kinda know what's going on. So use all of the resources that are available to you so that you can make an informed decision in the process.
Naseema McElroy (17:13): Yep. I love it. I love it. And yes, the biggest bang for your buck you're going to get is if you do get a new job, that's where it starts. That's where it starts. That's the floor that most people start at. And so you really want to be very strategic on when you accept that job, offer what you're accepting in that, because it can only go up from there, but you want to make sure you're not starting from a low level because it can take you years to get to what that next person next to you just negotiated. So you have to be super strategic about that. All right. So now you're transitioning into, are you having been in diversity and inclusion and workplaces? And I know that actually as a woman of color, certain workplaces can be uncomfortable because of basically just the lack of awareness around how to be in an inclusive workplace. What kind of things are you doing with organizations that you work with to make it more inclusive?
Dorianne St Fleur (18:03): Yeah. So the first thing I do is I don't just do put bandaids on things. So if companies want to work with me, it's not taking you just do this one training for us so that we can check the box. So I think for me, it's about having a holistic, the strategy that encompasses all of the areas of your culture. So I want to talk about things like your compensation process. How are you deciding who gets paid? What, and making sure that there's equal pay for equal work, as well as your performance that use your promotion process. I want to talk about that. I want to talk about the actual day to day interactions with people. I want to make sure your managers are trained on how to lead diverse teams. I wanna make sure that your recruiting strategy is diversifying your pipeline. It's everything. And so for organizations who really are serious about building cultures that are anti-racist, that are equitable, it's about how do we encompass it in everything we do and not just have like, Oh, diversity is a side project that we work on and we have a person who does some diversity work and we don't know what's going on. So it's really about making it all inclusive. So I do training strategy, thought partnership, all of that stuff in service of building equitable cultures.
Naseema McElroy (19:06): What about people who think that this work isn't necessary? Because if we're all coming to the same workplace and we've all gotten to degrees or certifications, or we all meet the same job qualifications, shouldn't it just be second nature that the workplace is inclusive.
Dorianne St Fleur (19:21): Yeah, no, we live in America. No, like that's what I would say to them. No, like I wish that were the case, but we add, I think we've seen it in every single area of life. It's not the biggest, not the way that these systems are set up. The systems were set up for white people to die. Literally they're being honest. And so they have access. I mean, you started our conversations talking about like this, a difference in how we're brought up. A lot of parents talked to us about some of the conversations that these folks are having, who are becoming CEOs at 27 and handle this million dollars in funding. And they're starting their businesses. We don't have the same access, the same things. And so, no, just because I have this degree and I have the certification, I have his license and we're both here at the same time.
Dorianne St Fleur (20:02): Hey that you all received, it's different. It's scary to you. Whereas if somebody else is passionate about a topic, Oh, they're so passionate and they bring everything. They have to this work. If I want to start a family, then you're, then people are saying, Oh, we may not want to give her these products because she's starting a family. If a man, his wife has started a family then solidifying and building roots, like there's so many differences with biases, with microaggressions, with just how we've all been brought up. That, no, it doesn't matter if we're the same on paper, it's just different. And don't even get me started on eating, getting to the table because being in HR, I've been around recruiter. It's like, there's a same with what your name is. Is it how it comes up on a resume? And if people will accept you here's I like one of the jobs I got, literally it was because of my, because my name is sounds very French.
Dorianne St Fleur (20:48): I'm from Brooklyn. And my French was a French company. And my boss, you know, months into it was like, really, when you came in, I really was the second somebody else. I got all these things and we just laughed about it, whatever, that's a thing. Like people, we are bringing you shortcuts and we say, okay, what makes sense? And you make assumptions. And unfortunately there's a lot of assumptions about women of color. And sometimes it goes to our detriment because, because of these systems that are just unfair and unequal and so no is the answer to that.
Naseema McElroy (21:17): And even if it's not even intentional, I think like you said, like our brain just wants to take shortcuts. There's a whole lot of unconscious bias around recruiting around hiring that goes into play. That if left unchecked can lead to a lot of people being taken advantage of, or just not being able to make as much money as the next person, which like you said, translate, especially for black women into over the lifetime of their careers being shorted out of millions of dollars. And so we cannot take this lightly. And so I love the work that you're doing and you're continuing to do and grow and educate these companies because it is so needed. So for people who want to level up in their career, how can they work with you? Reach out to you.
Dorianne St Fleur (21:58): Yeah. So you can find me at yourcareergirl.com. That's the website. I hang out mostly on Instagram. And so I'm your premier girl there as well. I have a Facebook group that's called the ambitious women of color in corporate. And the link to that we'll put in the show notes. I can't remember like off hand. Um, but yeah, that's where I am. I do group programs and masterminds and all of those sorts of things as well.
Naseema McElroy (22:20): Awesome. So thank you so much, Dorian, you have shared some amazing information.
Dorianne St Fleur (22:25): Thanks for having me.
Hey there I’m Naseema
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