This Nurse Is On A Mission To Make A Difference In The World - Ep. 93
Angel Cellucci is a woman on a mission! She has spent over 40 years working in the healthcare system, having started out as a Candy Striper and eventually going on to become a Family Nurse Practitioner. In 2015 she founded Overbrook Consultants, a fraud investigation company, to assist insurance carriers with reviewing medical bills for evidence of erroneous charges and/or blatant fraud. When her data revealed that roughly 9:10 of the medical bills she and her team reviewed contained errors, Angel knew that she had a personal and ethical responsibility to share that information with the general public.
Her goal now is to leverage that knowledge and experience, along with her fraud investigation skills to educate, equip, and empower patients to become the CHAMPIONS of their wellness journeys.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Naseema McElroy: [00:00:00] All right, Nurses on Fire. This is super excited to have Angel Cellucci joining us. An angel has a consulting practice called Overbrook Consultants, and she is a nurse, a nurse practitioner, and just has so much wisdom to share with us. So welcome Angel.
Angel Cellucci: [00:00:22] Thank you. Thank you. Naseema. I am so excited. Very excited. Especially if you talk to a fellow nurse like, hello?
Naseema McElroy: [00:00:29] Hello. No, I know as you probably don't talk to too many nurses now, but
Angel Cellucci: [00:00:36] no, no. So this is lovely.
Naseema McElroy: [00:00:40] Awesome. Awesome. But let's start with your nursing origin story. How did you become a nurse?
Angel Cellucci: [00:00:46] Well, I don't remember ever wanting to be anything but a nurse. I used to kid around cause now my hair is white, but my hair used to be black. And I used to kid around and say, I knew I looked good in white. That's why I became a nurse. Cause when I graduated nursing school, we actually had the white cap ceremony and we had to wear the white clinic shoes, the white pantyhose and I would iron my uniform starch it . Oh yeah, it was, I don't even know that I wore scrubs until recently, but anyway I used to say, Oh, I knew I looked good in white and I love the smell of rubbing alcohol.
I love hospitals. Like they just smell nice. So yeah, I started out as a candy striper. I always have to say that slowly because one letter and it's a whole different profession than it's the candy stripper.
Naseema McElroy: [00:01:34] Exactly.
Angel Cellucci: [00:01:38] So I try to say that slowly. Yeah, I started that when I was 13 and I just kind of never left it.
And even before nursing, I was a phlebotomist, you know, I used to say, I could get blood from a stone, like everything nursing. I love, I think it's the greatest profession ever. I'm not practicing anymore. I left practice back in 15 to do my nursepreneurial journey, but my daughter is a nurse anesthetist.
And so now I am living vicariously through her. So I'm like, send me pictures. I want to know what are you seeing? Did you see any brains today? Like, Oh man, I love that stuff. Yes. I just love the whole patient journey anyway, I get very excited about nursing.
Naseema McElroy: [00:02:18] So how long did you work as a nurse before you became a nurse practitioner?
Angel Cellucci: [00:02:22] Well, I did it. I always say I did ass backwards. I had my children first, so, and then I went to school. So I became a registered nurse in 1994, 94, 96. So I was probably 30. I think I was 32, 33 when I graduated. And then I, when I first started out, I was med surge for a week, but my goal was to get to the ER.
So then I went right to the ER, I did that for years. Then I became a hospice nurse, which I loved that. Then I went on to pursue my nurse practitioner, family nurse practitioner. And I then was doing, I was running the health center, the clinic at a university in Pennsylvania. So ask me anything about an STD and I could tell you all we did was STDs.
They share, at least that's good. Right. But I did that and I became an NP in 2007. I started that path for education. Ideally, I was going to go on for my PhD. I was just, I don't know, I was kind of the carrot chaser chasing degrees, and I wanted my PhD to be in nursing.
Cause just a very few I think it's like less than 1% of nurses get a PhD in nursing. I thought that I was going to do that. And my mentor of course had one. So she was pushing me and then. Two years into it. And I'm like, yeah, this isn't my path at all. And in fact, to be honest, I didn't even enjoy being a nurse practitioner.
I am a nurse and I loved being a nurse. I didn't like being on the other side. I think they're amazing nurse practitioners, what they do. But to me, that model just wasn't me. You know, like I said, I'm a ER, nurse or a hospice nurse. And my son used to say, You know, somebody would say, Oh, where's your mom working today?
Well, today she's helping people live, you know, one day maybe she's helping people die. Like I just went back and forth, but I'm more of a caretaker like that was just my role. So I think that's why it was easy to give up practice. Cause it just wasn't in my heart.
Naseema McElroy: [00:04:20] Yeah. So actually, I don't know if I told you this, but I'm also an FNP that never practiced.
Angel Cellucci: [00:04:27] No, I didn't know that.
Naseema McElroy: [00:04:31] Yeah. So I went all the way through when I did my nursing. I wasn't either accelerated nursing program. So then, to get my nursing degree, I actually had to get my master's, which cause I got accepted into the MP program in nursing school. So anyway, I finished. I hated the program.
I, I hated my clinicals but I was an L and D nurse a whole time and I was loving it. And I'm like, so you mean to tell me that I'm going to have to like make less money than I make now. To do something that I really don't enjoy. No, thank you. Thank you for the degree, but I'm going to stay working as a labor and delivery nurse, and I've had that degree for almost 10 years.
Angel Cellucci: [00:05:12] Wow. Yeah. You don't realize it. And you think, I think a lot of people are pushing nurses to go on for those higher degrees. But as if being a nurse isn't enough. Like come on now. I say all the time, it's the greatest profession in the world and yeah, no, I did not know we had that in common. I love that. I love that.
Yeah. How about pharmacology? When I had that? I'm like, yeah, screw this. I don't want to prescribe, I don't want to figure out which antibiotic I just might take care of you.
Naseema McElroy: [00:05:38] Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I didn't enjoy the clinic. I liked the hospital. I liked my babies. I liked my laboring moms. It's just nothing like it.
And I'm just not ready to give that up. I'll probably do it for a very long time, but. Yeah, I was just like, when I was in a clinic managing like diabetes and high blood pressure and I was just like, Oh, I don't want to be on this side. Like I did not get into nursing for this.
Angel Cellucci: [00:06:08] No, exactly. And it's good that you recognize that great that you have the degree, but it's good that you recognize that.
Naseema McElroy: [00:06:14] But now you're a consultant. Can you talk to us about your consulting practice that you started your nursepreneur practice?
Angel Cellucci: [00:06:22] Nursepreneur so I relocated from Philadelphia, to Nashville. In 2015 and I knew I wanted to do something different. And I was introduced to a woman who was also a registered nurse who had a consulting company, And she investigated for medical fraud and abuse, billing fraud, and overtreatment unnecessary treatment, all that kind of stuff. She did it for the insurance carriers. Naseema. My eyes were like, wait, what?
There's fraud? What who's doing fraud. There's over-treatment who would do that? Like I had no idea until five years ago that this stuff was going on. And so I started working with her and she was getting ready to retire and she wanted to pass her company on to cause people wanted to buy her company.
Insurance carriers wanted to buy her company, but she wanted to pass it on to another nurse. So that's where I came in. I renamed it to Overbrook consultants and the name Overbrook consultants that came to me because that is actually the name of the neighborhood in Philadelphia that I grew up in, in West Philadelphia, born and raised on theplayground.
Naseema McElroy: [00:07:29] Born and Raised love it.
Angel Cellucci: [00:07:34] Yes. That Will Smith grew up behind me, one street behind me. So he has Overbrook entertainment and I have Overbrook medical legal consultants. So I started doing that because I thought, okay, there's bad people out there. There's Naseema. There's actually organized crime rings.
Straw clinics. They call them where they have fake clinics. They're Luring people in for their insurance cards, treating them, billing, the insurance carriers, and we, the taxpayers are paying for them. And as soon as the feds are on to them, they disappear. That's why they're called straw clinics. We have organized crime rings coming out of my boyfriend always says, don't name countries.
They'll come after you. Let's just say other countries. Yeah. Crime rings. We have I call them the ethically challenged of our society, but we have ambulance companies who are committing billing fraud, who, if you had BLS transport, these are all nurses on your show. So if you had BLS transport, they'll bill you for ALS transport. We have providers doing this. We have hospitals. Raising their prices by 400 to 500%,
Naseema McElroy: [00:08:40] What about those helicopter companies that like charge you a million dollars and they have like, no, it's no recourse. It's just like, that's what it is.
Angel Cellucci: [00:08:50] No. Regulations and no regulations for hospitals, either for what hospitals can charge each house. If you have four hospitals and four different corners, they could each charge whatever they want, which is why you can get a shoulder x-ray for a hundred dollars here, a thousand dollars here, or $10,000 there. People don't know that nor do they know they can shop around. So I felt that. I was helping cause there's good and bad.
Everybody. There's good and bad police. Good and bad teachers. Good and bad priests. There's good and bad providers. There's good and bad hospitals. Good and bad ambulance. I don't want people to be afraid of their providers. I am pro provider and pro nurses, but I'm against anybody who makes it more difficult for those who are trying to do good.
So I felt like I was really, really helping by helping these insurances carriers and helping them to read the medical bills. We looked at the bills and all that kind of stuff for them, and also determined whether or not treatment was medically necessary. I had a staff of, you know, medical providers, nurse practitioners that would read them with me.
But then I think it was about two years ago. I'm like, it seems like we're saving them a lot of money. So I ran the numbers. Naseema over the course of the years that the company has been around, we've saved insurance carriers over $30 million.
Naseema McElroy: [00:10:06] Wow. Jess, you're a little, not little, but I'm just saying like in the scope of things,
Angel Cellucci: [00:10:12] It's little on mean in a spare bedroom, in my house, like everything is digital that we do. Yes. Over $30 million. So then I'm like, wait a minute. We see them all this money. We are paying higher premiums. We are paying more out of pocket expenses. We're paying more for pharmaceuticals, things that haven't even changed in decades, like insulin. We're doing all of that. And then I realized there are a lot of people, hospitals, CEOs, pharmaceutical CEOs.
Who are making a lot of money on the backs of the people that the system was designed to serve and putting to work unbelievable hours. Our nurses, our providers, our providers now have eight minutes to spend with a patient. Our nurses. You have to do mandatory overtime, all that stuff used to piss me off when I would have to do mandatory overtime.
I want to say, excuse me, Mr. CEO, have you ever even gotten your suit dirty? Have you ever done mandatory overtime? No, but you make $24 million a year and I make 24 bucks an hour. So that's when I'm telling you Naseema the Philly. He came out and I was mad and I'm like this ain't happening no more.
And I'm sorry, I kinda got ahead of myself. Why I named it? Overbrook is because that's where in that neighborhood I learned. That we're supposed to watch out for each other. We're supposed to share our information with each other. We're supposed to have each other's backs. So when I saw all this, I'm like, Nope, no more.
I need to tell as many people as possible. That this is going on and I teach people how to do what we do opening the kimono wide open. Oh. And I don't even know if I told you this because I told you about how much money we've saved them. I also looked at all the medical records that we reviewed because we have it on a database, thousands, thousands of records, nine out of 10 of the records we reviewed contained errors, errors, fraud, and or abuse.
But Billington. And I'm like, Oh my and the same four or five things kept appearing all the time. You know, like double billing, billing for services, not delivered. And you know, as nurses on the other side, when I was a nurse, especially in the ER, you heard a trauma coming in, you would crack up in a tray and then if you didn't use it, the patients still use it.
You still bill the patient. Well, that's not right. And even now I'm thinking to myself, little things, you know, like, gosh, I remember one patient I had, which I love doing IVs. I think it took me three or four tries. Well, I billed them through, you know, you do the chart. I Mark that I used four IVs and you know, the starters, the needle.
I can't remember the name of it right now. Why should that patient have to pay that bill for my inability to start the IV. So all I'm telling you, my world like blew up, like, Oh my gosh, I remember doing that. I remember doing that. So that's why I wanted to talk with the nurses here, because Hey, I want to empower them when they're on the other side of it.
As a patient and also realize that you as a nurse has probably more power than anybody else in the system to make a difference big time. So, yes, we don't realize how powerful we are.
Naseema McElroy: [00:13:14] We are super powerful, but I mean, Even just like what you said about starting the IB. I mean, like been there, I mean like of course, labor and delivery, I already has an IV and that's the same thing.
Like, you know, you don't get that IB huge hard for you charge for everything. And, even like, labor, you know, you might open a kit and might not use it. Like you might open the vag, like you're going to do a vaginal delivery or ended up having a C-section or sometimes we open up for an emergency C-section and we don't have a C-section.
So that's like $20,000 in instruments, you know? So it's just , yeah. It's like all the time.
Angel Cellucci: [00:13:49] And even when it comes time to documenting it, cause that's one of the things we saw a lot was billing for services not delivered. And the classic example is because this, you know, you can change one.
I don't know if charting now is the same, but you change the code. The CPT code for one thing. And it's a whole different thing. And even numbers wise like quantity, we reviewed medical records for a gentleman. I knew what he had to. He had a cardiac cath, Oh, Naseema, this story. He had a cardiac cath put in.
Normally that costs 35, $40,000. But because he has Medicare guests, how much this surgery center billed Medicare, not him build Medicare. Which who pays. Who's 140,000. We are Medicare. So if we don't like our potholes, if we don't like our schools, if we want art in the school, well, that's where all that money comes from.
And you've got criminals out there taking this stuff. So anyway, when I was reviewing his medical records, I called him because I saw something fishy and he was a friend of mine. So I said, Hey, how many of these did you have? Cause it was the same day procedure. And I used to do PACU. He said I had one. Why it's okay.
Cause they billed you for six. He's like what I'm like. Yeah. Yeah. So just, could it be, the nurse was rushed? I don't know. Could it be the coding person don't know, we don't know how it happens,
Naseema McElroy: [00:15:08] But it happens, but , I think I share with you this example too, Like during labor we have to bill, right. Labor nurses have to bill. So we go in and we're pushing with a patient for six hours where then we end up in an emergency C-section and then we have to finally sit down and do our charting up. We've been running around and then it's just like, You don't remember everything that you do. And so what usually happens is, is that we hit a button for like a bundle, a charge bundle and just everything that, I mean, like we have to cover our bases and then they tell you, if you have an IV and that patient might be on just regular maintenance, IV fluids with no medications on it, if they have any kind of medication added to it, then you have to upcharge them.
Because now that IV fluid is more, you know what I'm saying? So you have to like, think about these things, like as a nurse, and it's just like, kind of daunting because first of all, I don't think that's really our job. Number one, number two, I feel like. We have all these systems, healthcare systems, everything has to be scanned in like, how come that, I mean, I feel like that would cut down on a lot of fraud and I feel bad because I'm inadvertently part of the problem.
So I see how medical bills are erroneously charged. I mean, and like before I was a nurse, I was actually on the other side when I was at I have a master's in healthcare administration before I was a nurse. And so I used to be one of my roles was over member services. And so people would come all the time to dispute their bills and we will look at it and being like, okay, like we sit in a committee and like, Oh, look at them.
And then, 9.9 times out of 10, we would, either completely forgive them or like almost completely forgive them or like come up with like a really, really affordable payment plan around it. But it was because like a lot of times it was, they were paying for stuff that either was excessive or, you know, it was just like, or we knew that they can't afford it. And on the other side, what a lot of people don't know. And I'm sure you're going to talk about this is that a lot of hospitals have to have a certain amount of charity care too. And so if they write off a lot of this medical debt if you just ask for it.
Angel Cellucci: [00:17:28] Yes, and people don't know. And that's why also as nurses, when you're on the other end of that, realize that like, as nurses, I didn't even know that. And you know, I just want to touch on the fact that you said as nurses , you're contributing to the problem, but in my head, nurses are overworked. They're exhausted your patient level.
Like how many patients do y'all have now? You know, it's like, I mean, it's different than when I lived, when I was working nursing. You said about there's the system I left before epics or whatever that's called, came in. I remember pulling stickers off. Bags and putting them all over my scrubs.
Naseema McElroy: [00:18:00] Yes. Yes. We still have the stickers believe me.
Angel Cellucci: [00:18:05] So you're doing like all that stuff. Like you said, you could be on a double, you're working your ass off and then now I have to sit down and chart and do all of this. When you created this electronic health record, that's supposed to make our job easier. And it doesn't. So I don't really think nurses are anywhere to blame, but again, I'm pro nurse.
So I just think that the system is not designed to support the people who are supporting the system, you know, and that's not fair. So,
Naseema McElroy: [00:18:37] So with your consulting firm, have you shifted from helping insurers to now helping consumers with their medical bills?
Angel Cellucci: [00:18:44] Heck yes. Yes. That's what I do. So I was and this is, I think the nurse in me, I was always So they say B2B you're business to business, or then you switched to B to C, which is business to consumer.
I say I'm H to H and I think that's the nurse. I do human to human. Like that's what we're supposed to be, you know? And nursing is the most trusted profession. So we have more power, like I said before to change and make an impact on the system. And with regards to patients, I know who has time for patient education.
Remember the care plans where you have to do patient education and all that kind of stuff. I know. Right. But. And then an educated patient is an empowered patient, and that's what I teach people is that how to have a more collaborative relationship with your provider. And that starts by just asking lots of questions in a very succinct way.
Cause they only have eight minutes with you. And also it's not a form of questioning the doctor or nurse practitioner. It's a matter of asking, Hey, what's that for that medicine that IV is going in your body. I want to know what it is, so nurses can step into that role and do even when you're checking vitals, I just want to let you know why I'm checking this because blah, blah, blah, or I'm starting an IV.
I'm just going to let you know why I'm doing this this way. And dah, it just makes the patient also feel like they're a part of it. They're not just a number. They're not just a body. I tell people your autonomy is more important than your anatomy. You want to be like, nobody is smarter. Nobody knows more about your body than you do.
It doesn't matter how many degrees I have. I know my body inside. I may not be able to tell you what's wrong, but yeah, like we have just so much more power and patients need to know that they have more power than they realize, and they need to use their voice. And I think once nurses realize. The system would crumble without us, like realize that guys, the system would crumble without us.
So why is it? I don't know if it's a woman thing for me personally, or a nurse. We don't know how to ask for our worth. We don't know how to say no, that's not safe practice. We don't know how to do that. And then if we do, we have other people telling us, no, that is what you have to do. Oh, no, you do have to do what I tell you. Why.
You have two little girls. Would you want to raise your daughters to live in a world like that? No. So let me tell you, my daughter, I told you she's a CRNA she's mouthy. She doesn't take crap from anybody. She had a surgeon, which we know they all have God complexes. She had a surgeon yell at her during a case.
One time she pulled him outside and said, don't ever talk to me like that. Again, I am a human being. You can't talk to me like that. And he was like, now he's like a puppy dog with her. He's like, Oh, nobody ever called me out.
Naseema McElroy: [00:21:28] Exactly. You have to call these people out. Listen, I guess I was raised kind of like you, and so I was not raised to be intimidated by a hierarchy or structured that kind of like formal structure that doc, you know, that the medical institution is set up like, like the military, like, so you have your orders and all that kind of stuff. Like, I don't care. You're the doctor like, okay, we're on the same page.
Like we have the same goal. You can't do your job without me. So I'm not about to bow down to you. Cause I know what's going on here for the you. Okay. I'm gonna tell you what I need. Okay. So I'm a little bit, I'm a little bit different, but that's the thing like nurses need to speak up.
And what I've noticed is that the fear around not speaking up, it's often tied to the fear of losing their job and their financial security is not about the job is that we. as nurses, a lot of us are, the breadwinners are far, if not just our immediate family of our whole family, like everybody leans on us. And if we speak up that way, take out our whole family, possibly if we lost our job. And so people are afraid to do that.
Angel Cellucci: [00:22:40] And don't you think they know that and they play on that?
Naseema McElroy: [00:22:43] Yes. And that's what my whole platform is about is getting yourself. Empowered and being in a financial position.
So that doesn't happen because that's what happened to me. And luckily it happened during a time where , I could walk away from a position. So I had transferred to a new hospital and I was seeing some things where. You know, like in America, the black maternal morbidity and mortality rates are crazy.
And I was seeing some things where patients weren't being heard. I just saw some. Like really, really terrible things. Basically it's near misses and Sentinel events that could have been avoided by just listening to these patients. Like back-to-back like every week and I spoke up on it and for the first time, like in my whole nursing career, I always offer suggestions.
I'm not just like, Oh, this is not a safe place to work. I'm like these things probably need to happen. And then like, usually like when I do that, like those things happen, like, they usually like start the process of changing. And this time I talked to, actually I talked to the chief, I went to the chief and I was just like, yeah, like, I think we need to have more drills or C-section drills.
We need to know how to properly take care of patients in an emergency because we only have this amount of time. And then she was just like, Nah, I think it is your clinical skills. Yeah. And I was just like, okay, so that's okay. So I already knew what time it was and I knew Only somebody would only say something like that.
If the system had empowered them to say something like that. So I knew that it was bigger than just her. And so like the way that I had to deal with it was bigger than just her. So I ended up like filing all these complaints. I ended up leaving there. Well, stop going. Well, let's say I stopped going to work, which caused them to fire me.
But In the end, I was able to speak up for what was right for the patients. Get some changes in place, but I wasn't afraid to speak up because I knew I could walk away from that position.
Angel Cellucci: [00:24:49] You had the financial ability to do that? You're saying
Naseema McElroy: [00:24:51] Yes. Yes. Because it was like right after I had paid off all my debt. And I mean labor and delivery nurses can work anywhere at another job though, but I'm just like, but I didn't need to be there. And a lot of people need those jobs need that overtime need that. They don't say the things that can keep the patients safe.
And I just feel like we, like you said, we have so much power to change things, but we ha we can't be afraid to speak up whether it's because of financial constraints or because you're just intimidated by the system and the structure of, you know, the institution that you work in. And it shouldn't be like that.
Angel Cellucci: [00:27:03] No. And isn't that part. I mean, it's been so long since I read our nursing code of ethics, but isn't that one of the things about we're supposed to be advocates for patients, but think about it as you're talking, I'm thinking to myself, you know, you said that your supervisor was empowered from up above to think that way.
Who and how many, CEU classes have you taken? How many, hospital, mandatory classes have you taken? Have you ever taken one? And it's just unknown to me. Have you ever taken one. Where they teach nurses how to be empowered. No, I just don't want to be, we teaching our nurses? How to say to my daughters example, a surgeon, don't talk to me like that.
Where are we learning teaching nurses, how to say, that's not safe care. You need to let us know and let us know that if we approach you our jobs, aren't on the line. None of that is there. And yet that is our code of ethics to advocate for the patient, the same way the providers take the Hippocratic oath to do no harm.
They're doing medically unnecessary treatment for the mighty dollar to make money or because they're incentivized by the higher ups. So why are these? Higher-ups the ones who determine how much time physicians and NP spend with patients, how much they bill, how much nurses have to work, how they're empowering their little, other administration, people, I don't want to knock administration people, but you got to look down at the people who are supporting the system. Like let's make sure your people are happy. I mean, that would be an amazing hospital. So maybe we should start our own hospital system
Naseema McElroy: [00:28:32] You know what?
Angel Cellucci: [00:28:34] We'd have the best nurses,
Naseema McElroy: [00:28:36] You know what? We would have the best nurses, the best care, the efficiency. Listen, if I'm entering all this stuff into this computer, you better run a report on the back end. Okay. I mean, like literally, why am I still filling out a paper delivery log? When I just logged in all your information to the second into this computer, like imma need us to catch up to technology. Okay. And my two year old knows how to scroll through my phone and go on YouTube. Then I think that the dang technology in hospitals can be updated so that we get accurate precise information, which makes us more efficient, which makes things more cost-effective in the long term.
Angel Cellucci: [00:29:20] I don't think they, we want that Naseema and you know, I don't think they want it. Because now I live in Nashville, Tennessee, which I think I mentioned to you is considered like the healthcare capital of our country.
Cause like 70 or 80% of the hospitals in our country are based here, HCA, CHS, all that. But I see all these other tech startups, it seems like. Everybody's creating these digital platforms, these digital things for people, but it's just a profit from them. Everybody's trying to get a piece of the pie. We're the ones making the pie, you know, and you're right with the whole . Charting and documenting and they don't care. You better run a report on the backend Naseema, that was another one of my pivotal decisions with the insurance carriers. Cause I called our, we have a nurse contact at these carriers offices and I said, Hey, so what kind of results are you getting?
I know how much money we saved you. Cause we would look at the bills. We would say, this is what you were charged. The insurance carrier. This is a legitimate amount for that geographic area. We recommend you only pay this. So if we reviewed $20,000 worth of medical records and only, 50,000 were legit, we would say to them only 50,000 is legit.
They then give it to their attorneys who then. Negotiate those fees down. Okay. So I asked them it happened to three different carriers. I said, Hey, I know how much money we saved you over the years. What kind of return are you getting? Are you able to negotiate down to that price? They're like, Oh, we don't really do anything with those reports.
Naseema McElroy: [00:30:45] What?
Angel Cellucci: [00:30:46] Are you flipping kidding me? Like we literally showed you,
Naseema McElroy: [00:30:50] So they just pay you?
Angel Cellucci: [00:30:52] And a lot of other big companies, I mean, we're a little Guppy in the ocean. There's big companies. They pay big money to identify red flags, fraud, billing, errors, that kind of stuff. The ones I talked to, I went and dared named the carriers.
Let's just say they're famous names. They didn't even do anything with the reports we sent. Now, this person should know what they do with it. And that's what I'm like, all right, we're doing all this work. We're saving you money on the one side and you're not relaying those savings down to people. Oh no, no more. No, that can't happen. and we are all one major illness away from bankruptcy. Oh, did I tell you about my friend? So I met this woman recently. Her husband had a traumatic brain injury. They were upper-middle-class. He has some type of accident. I don't know the details of the accident. He was in the ICU for seven days. Naseema guess how much his medical bills were.
Naseema McElroy: [00:31:44] Has to be no less than $200,000. The ICU stay.
Angel Cellucci: [00:31:48] Oh, girlfriend. I'm glad you're sitting down. It's $10,000 a day in the ICU oh, their bills were $3 million. Oh, they were upper middle class. That poor girl is now donating her plasma twice a week to make money.
This is one of our patient's wives now donating plasma twice a week. She grows mealworms. To sell to the the neighbors. She also is raising chickens to sell eggs. Plus she has two part-time jobs at home because she is the full-time caretaker for her husband. Who's recovering from this TBI.
Meanwhile, people hear CEOs of these places. They're treated like freaking royalty down here. Man that makes me mad. And I don't know if I told you about the salary thing, but like we've got pharmaceutical company CEOs making 20, $30 million a year. You put together a nurse's salary, a nurse practitioner salary, and a provider salary.
The CEOs make making one day what these three making an entire year combined. I'm like, this has got to stop. And then you have patients who are declaring bankruptcy. 62% of all personal bankruptcies are related to the inability to pay medical bills, which is why, what you're teaching people is so important because you don't know if you're going to get sick.
And if you need the healthcare system, you better have your finances in order. So you can be able to afford it because it could totally change the trajectory of your life. Like this was an upper middle class family, and now they have zero. That shouldn't happen. Not on our watch, not when we have such amazing nurses who can make a difference, even if we're a quiet revolution, that's what I want.
I want to create a grassroots movement where I empower patients to say, no, no, no, you're not gonna treat our nurses like that. And like, patients need to know how their nurses are being treated, how their providers are being treated. Because if you guys all felt supported by us, And Naseema, let's say you walked into a room and you knew the doctor was in there and they're saying something to the patient.
How empowered would you feel if you heard that patient say to the doctor, don't talk to my nurse like that. You can't do that, Nan. So we've got to mirror that.
Naseema McElroy: [00:33:54] It doesn't happen. this is what happens. We do all the work we're in there. We're pushing five hours within, you know, the bit the doctor comes in for five minutes to catch the baby and they're like, Oh, thank you, doctor you're the best.
But I'd be like, girl, did you see me not, Hey, here with you all these hours. Okay. Don't be thanking the doctor. You better thank me. Like, I'll call her out, but that's just me. But you know, like it's so many nurses that come out of those rooms crying because they're just like, like, Oh my God, like I just did all this stuff. Do you know that that patient didn't even acknowledge me?
Angel Cellucci: [00:34:31] Oh, right. See, patients don't even know that. So that's where I'm trying to educate the patients. What it's about. And listen, I don't know anything about the kind of car you drive, but meanwhile, you do all that work. They praise the doctor, you go home in your little Honda and he goes home in his porch.
Why, why is that allowed? Like, it's gotta be like leveled. We're all supposed to be in this together. And we are all individual disciplines. Provider's medical degree. People should not feel like they have more power than us. You can't do your job without us.
Naseema McElroy: [00:34:59] I just feel like that's ingrained in there and the culture and how they're like go through medical school. And I'm just like, for what, like you said, you cannot do your job without me. You can't function without me. So why are you so untitled?
Angel Cellucci: [00:35:13] Exactly. Which is why, what you're doing is so important because you're teaching nurses, how to make sure you are financially stable so that you're never at that position where somebody can be demeaning to you or look down on you or tell you, you have to do something you don't want to do.
Naseema McElroy: [00:35:28] I mean, you just come to the bedside, more empowered in general, and that's what needs to happen. But I love what you're saying about having the patients speak up too, because it's those smart patients that know if you treat your nurse right. You are going to get the best care possible.
Angel Cellucci: [00:35:49] Oh, trust me. You know, when you go out to a fancy resort or something and you always tip the Butler, you tip somebody. So you get good care, give a nurse a tip in the form of a compliment, or I appreciate you. If somebody said to me, when I was like working my tail off, if they just said, I just want you to know. I appreciate you. Oh man. You want a back rub? I'll give you three a day. Like, you know, like we would just bend over backwards. Cause that's all we want to know. We want to know we're making a difference. And yeah, so patients need to know that. And that's the other thing is I want to change the word patient.
It's going to take a while. I still have to speak their language, but I think patients is such a disempowering word. It automatically puts you in a submissive position. And speaking of submission, I'm working on a new signature talk and I'm calling it " Warning, Disrobing could lead to disempowerment" because as soon as your ass is hanging out in a hospital gown, do you really think you're in control? You're not. So I want to teach you.
Naseema McElroy: [00:36:49] I think my butt looks cute in a hospital gown. I don't mind.
Angel Cellucci: [00:36:55] Great. Well, so we've seen some ugly butts though, haven't we?
Naseema McElroy: [00:36:58] Oh, yes, but I love it. I love what you're doing, but I think that it has to start at the level of empowering patients of empowering consumers. Of healthcare to know what their rights are. I love that you have kinda like flipped that working for the insurance companies and turned it to working for consumers because we need this. I was going to ask actually, were you able to help that couple with their bill
Angel Cellucci: [00:37:28] No, I just met them. I just met her like, Oh, since you and I spoke before. So probably within the last two weeks. Yeah. But she was really smart and savvy. She really, because she said she used to work for a litigation attorney.
So she knew that you have the right to negotiate and like what you were saying, patients can come and say, Hey, I have this hardship. So that's one of the things I teach people is that, you know, first of all, your time is valuable. Don't spend four hours on a phone talking to the billing department. Oh. And that's the other thing, kill them with kindness because you know what.
They're not the ones making the decisions. They're just trying to have a job also. And don't, we all daily learn this in nursing school that people don't Sue people that they like, so be nice to people. So I tell people, get on write a letter and send it certified return receipt now because by law they have to reply within 30 days.
But if you do have to talk to somebody on the other end, realize that they are a patient also at some point in time. So be kind to them cause then the one to help you more, you know? Yeah. So that's one of the things I teach people too.
Naseema McElroy: [00:38:26] Yeah. And so since you switched over to helping consumers, how much money do you think you save people?
Angel Cellucci: [00:38:34] Well right now, my role is to teach people because I believe in, so I don't know what their results are. I have to start gathering that data. I have to find a way to capture that, but there's that parable that if you give a man a fish, versus if you teach me on the fish, well, I, can we review your medical bills for you?
Sure. Absolutely. If you have $3 million worth of medical bills, we absolutely can do that, but I'm not in the room with you. So what I teach people, I created a proprietary system. It's very simple and you can implement it today, but I call it the dove system, D O V E. And by implementing the DOVE system, you will have financial peace of mind knowing that you are in control of your medical experience and also keeping your money in your pocket.
It stands for is D document. And I teach people, you have to begin documenting from the minute you make the appointment. All the way through until the Bill's been paid. Why? Because if you get a bill and you canceled your appointment within 24 hours and you see on your bill, that they still billed you for that visit, that's a form of fraud, billing for services, not delivering O stands for organizing.
I teach people how to, how to have a very organized system where you can keep track of everything. And I'm so excited. Cause I'm launching this next week with a webinar I'm doing, but I've created, it's not a digital platform. It's not an electronic health record. I've created. Actually it's a digital product.
I should say that, but you own it. And you own all of your medical rec. If you have 10 different doctors, they teach you how to organize it all in one place that you have access to it on your phone, your iPad and your dashboard. You pay for it one time, no membership, no electronic health record. You own it because I want to teach people.
Yes. To be consumers of healthcare, but to be guardians of your wellness journey. And that's what the system is set up for. The V stands for verify, you have to start reading your bills, your medical bills, and even nurses as patients when your patients, because one of the most common billing errors we saw was upcoding.
So if you see your provider for, let's say a sore throat, but when you see your bill, you're built for a pneumonia visit. A higher acuity, B more money. See, you now have pneumonia on your medical records. Or even if you see the NP, the doctor could still bill you, that you saw them. Oh, no, I didn't.
I saw the MP, so that's verifying and then engage. I teach them what to do. Should you find a billing error? Should you have to declare financial hardship? Should, you know, what do you do if you, if you found no errors, but the prices were too high, all that kind stuff. So dove document, organize, verify, and then engage. So.
Naseema McElroy: [00:41:11] Yes. I love that system. It's just so empowering. And I just thinking about all the money that you save, it's not about the money though. It's really about control. It's really taking that sense of control back, because I feel like people walk into hospitals or people walk into doctor's offices and automatically they feel a sense of loss of control.
I'm going to share another story. You know, like with. Before Coronavirus was coronavirus. My daughter was hospitalized with RSB and she's seven, you know, seven year olds don't really get hospitalized for RSV. So I think she just had an early stage of like the coronavirus, but anyway, it kind of came through our household, I think before it became a pandemic like in February.
So my boyfriend was really sick. And so I was like, you look really bad. I'm going to take you to urgent care because he was having difficulty breathing. So I went to urgent care and I was like, should I come here? Or should I go across the street to the emergency room? It was at my hospital. I was like, or should I go across the streets at emergency room?
Cause I really want to get him a chest x-ray because I really want to see what's going on. This is the nurse practitioner talking. Okay. I just want to see what's going on. Like. If I just thought he had a cold, I would've just kept him home. Cause it takes me a lot to take people to the hospital to be bleeding.
Yeah, exactly. And so I'm like, okay, well they were like, no, we can do that here. We'll do that here. We'll see him. And so I'm just like, okay, cool. So I don't like the kids to be there. So I was like, okay, let me take the kids. So go, you know, go hang out with my coworkers, go say hi. They like to see the kids.
So he went to labor and delivery. Oh, there, and then he calls me, he was like, I'm done. And I'm like, really? You're done. I'm like, so what happened? And he was like, Oh, she just gave me this. And I was like, what is this? It was a script for like, guaifenesin straight up Musinex and so I went over there, I left them in the car and I went over there and I was like, I need to talk to her.
And then the medical assistants were like, she's not going to talk to you because you're not, the patient is HIPAA. I said, okay. Okay. So I'm, I'm gonna bring my kids up out this car. And then when I bring my kids about this car is really about to be some stuff. God, I love you. You all coming back up here, we all coming back up here and it's about to be something cause you going to play this HIPAA game with me, but I'm gonna see what you're gonna see what's up. Okay.
Angel Cellucci: [00:43:34] I am like bowing to you right now.
Naseema McElroy: [00:43:37] So. Listen, I don't play, but that's the thing is that we all need advocates and a lot of people don't know their rights. And so we all go back into the exam room and I'm like, so run this whole thing back to me run what you thought was going on because I came here because he is really sick.
I said, and I asked at the desk before we checked in, if he can, if you guys can do chest x-rays over here. And then she was like, Oh, while I offer him a Chest X-Ray. But he refused, and he was like, no I didn't. And I said, so you're going to sit up here in my face and lie. I said, that's what you not going to do, because I know you didn't offer it to him.
He does not have no reason to lie. Oh my gosh, you set up here and told him he didn't need a chest. X-ray what's your justification for that? And then she was kind of stuck and she was like, Oh, Well, we can't really do that here. I'm going to have to send them to the emergency room. We're going to, you're going to have to send you to the ER.
And I was like, yeah. And then order him labs, order him this. And I've just started running down. What I needed was she needed to order come to find out he had massive pneumonia.
Angel Cellucci: [00:44:51] Oh my gosh.
Naseema McElroy: [00:44:52] Yes, he had to be on an albuterol treatment in the ER.
Angel Cellucci: [00:44:59] Holy cow,
Naseema McElroy: [00:45:01] I'm just like this pisses me off because people will continue to get away with that because they don't have advocates and because I don't know, like I'm sitting here mad at him for not speaking up, but I shouldn't really be mad at him because he's just the pay. He should know.
Angel Cellucci: [00:45:20] He doesn't know, patients don't know that they can speak up like that. Good for you. And the way you are his advocate, that's how we need to get with our patients as well.
But more important. We need to empower the patients, which is back to the original thing. Could I do it for you? Sure. But I'm not in the office with you.
Naseema McElroy: [00:45:36] Yes. Yes. That's the whole thing.
Angel Cellucci: [00:45:39] It's been like, girl, you better not be billing me for this urgent care visit.
Naseema McElroy: [00:45:42] Exactly.
Angel Cellucci: [00:45:43] I'll get the bill for the, ER.
Naseema McElroy: [00:45:45] You think I paid anything for that
Angel Cellucci: [00:45:48] No.
Naseema McElroy: [00:45:49] Cause I was running all the way up. I'll call it the house supervisor. Like, let me tell you something and I'm gonna need you to get me back to this, ER, because I'm not about to sit here all night after I just sat in the urgent care for two hours, like you about to get us back there and we are about to do an, and we was in and out of the ER, but I'm just like, come on.
Angel Cellucci: [00:46:08] No. And people need to know that they can do that. They can do that. If you didn't do that, your boyfriend would have had for pneumonia. So how many patients are done? One thing, you know, when they're not getting the care they need or they're getting in the same, there's a hospital in Florida. Who the, I forget how much the penalty is for like $2 billion, something like that, because they were forcing aggressively pressuring.
So you think we've got issues as nurses to some of our providers, they were aggressively pressuring the ER physicians to admit anybody over the age of 65. Whether or not they needed it just because they were a Medicare
Naseema McElroy: [00:46:50] Oh yeah, they can get the Medicare so they can get the Medicare. They're the highest reimbursers, you know this in healthcare administration, okay. You lose Medicare funding, you lose your hospital. So they try to get as many Medicare patients in the door with as many services as possible,
Angel Cellucci: [00:47:05] Whether or not they need it. So you bring your grandmother there for a stubbed toe. Chances are they're going to try the admit her. So how it came out is that this one doctor.
When to discharge the patient. Hospital screen comes up and says, are you sure you went to ? Did you miss this? Blah, blah, blah. He overrides. It says, Nope. Patient to be discharged comes up again. Three times. He had to say, no, I'm discharging I'm discharging. Next day, the hospital CEO's come down and have a talking to him.
He then blew the whistle and said, that's it. So then there was like, five-year physicians who said, no, you can't do this. And so, but people don't speak up, you know, So good for you for doing that. And I hope everybody listening here knows yes. Do it for yourself, do it for your family. Then we got to start doing it for our patients, but I'm trying to teach people to do it, to support you so that you're not the only ones doing it.
Naseema McElroy: [00:47:57] Yes, yes. Yes. So, I mean, I just hope the nurses out there feel empowered by this information because. Number one, you're going to be a patient to number one two. I mean, like, this is part of the education that we need to give our patients. I mean, we can't tell them specifically about their bill, but we can tell them, about what we're doing and why.
So they have the information it's part of our education. And then like, I feel like. If you are looking to transition out of nursing, I feel like you have an advocacy role. If not, as a role with like what you're doing, empowering nurses, I mean, empowering patients to actually be active participants in their healthcare.
Or whether it's like being that advocate. That's, they're just like me, like, no, you're not about to do this. Like, we have so much power to turn the tables on the system and to improve the system because this, for all of us, one day we're going to be a patient. Our kids are going to be a patients. Our family members are going to be a patient.
So I feel like it's our obligation because yes, it is in our nursing code of ethics to serve and to be advocates. And this is how we do it. So, I mean, I love all your stories. I love everything that you're doing. And I just feel like you have a major impact on how we take care of our patients and just, the world of healthcare in general. So I really appreciate you. I love that you aren't afraid to speak up and I loved that Philly part of you that's like, listen, listen, we gotta help each other. And that's how I was raised to each one, teach one, we bring, we come up, we bring the next person up with it. And so
Angel Cellucci: [00:49:38] Right. And it's not just our patients, you know what we need to build up. Our fellow nurses, you know, when you see a nurse just being ripped apart, you can stand up and say, excuse me, you're not going to talk to her like that. And here's another thing that I saw. People patients, especially, and some nurses also, they like bow to the physician, but why not?
The NP, the NP has just as much education if you want to go. Oh, he has more education. No, not necessarily. So, but then also, why are we not. Treating and respecting each other as fellow nurses, the way that we treat the surgeons. Why? Like that's something that's always been a thorn in my side.
Like, I don't care who you are, do you not poop the same way I do. You do. So I'm going to give you respect. You give me respect. And I really think that if we empower our patients, empower each other. Then the, system's not going to have any choice, but to change
yes. That I love that the system has to change
and then get your finances in order so that you have more power.
And, when you were saying that, like about how I started my entrepreneurial journey, again, nursing is the most trusted profession in the meantime, while you're still working and you're building up your finances and all that kind of stuff. Why don't you begin even volunteering in your neighborhood.
Like you said, the disparities with black pregnant women teach black pregnant women. How to have a voice. If you're an L and D nurse, teach them how to ask for what they need, or I was a hospice nurse, let me talk to you about hospice. Like we can start advocating grassroots and then find a way to get paid, to do it.
And then you leave the job and you give the job, the proverbial middle finger, because now I've created this beautiful thing where I'm advocating for patients, which that's what we are made for.
Naseema McElroy: [00:51:20] Yes. Yes. Yes.
Angel Cellucci: [00:51:22] I could talk to you all day long.
Naseema McElroy: [00:51:26] Yes, I was just here for reach Angel. Yes. We could talk about this all day long, but Angel let them know.
I know you've done some talks and things about this and you have a lot of good resources out there. Where can people find all things Angel?
Angel Cellucci: [00:51:43] I think the, the safest thing right now would be to just go to my website. Which is Overbrook consultants.com. Because I actually have I'm going to start doing live webinars on a weekly basis where I teach people the title is here's the saucy and me again, but it's called pad an acronym pad, pad, your ass that's, I'm teaching people how to protect advocate for and defend greatest two resources, your health and your wealth, you know, which is there's you and I, we should take our show on the road, but anyway,
Naseema McElroy: [00:52:18] we need to do that.
Angel Cellucci: [00:52:22] I think so. So, but yes, the website would be great and starting The beginning of April. So when you get to the website, you could just sign up for my newsletter because starting the first week in April, I just want to send out a newsletter once a month.
I don't even like it when I get weekly newsletter. So it's just gonna be once a month. And it's going to be a recap of things that I'm going to talk about on my YouTube channel, on a blog, on, social media. But this way it'll be one resource. And. If you can attend one of the webinars, great.
They're going to be 45 minutes. I want them live so I can answer any questions that people have. And so yeah, website's probably the best.
Naseema McElroy: [00:52:54] I love it. But I just know that people can learn so much from you. And if this, this is it's just so inspirational on like what you can do as a nurse. Like in watching you and the things that you've done, but also there are so many opportunities for you to improve the healthcare system.
And so I hope you guys really take heat to this information get inspired and just are encouraged to really speak up for your patients. Speak up for yourself, speak up for other nurses and nurse practitioners. And just really lean into the power that you have as nurses. So thank you so much, angel.
This has been my absolute pleasure having you on
Angel Cellucci: [00:53:37] fellow nurse. I could talk to you all day and I would like to just say one other thing, cause I love how you say about the power and all that and speak up. Cause I was very intimidated. I was very insecure nurses out there. Speak up. Even if your voice shakes, I think it was a Ruth Bader Ginsburg that said that speak up, even if your voice shakes, because you are always in the right if you are advocating for the welfare of your fellow nurse, yourself or your patients. So. Cause my voice shakes all the time. And if somebody asked me that one time and I said, you know, what do you usually feel? I said, equally terrified and empowered at the same time. So a lot of times my voice shakes, or if I have a conversation with the CEO, I'll cry in the bathroom afterwards, it's kind of like a trauma, you know, you'll go answer the trauma, your super nurse.
And then afterwards you crap yourself, you know, but speak even if your voice shakes, because you can do it. You're the most powerful people in the world.
Naseema McElroy: [00:54:31] We are, we are, we just have to lean into that power. Oh my God. I love it. Speak up. Even if your voice shakes, you know, we're always afraid to cry and especially as women, because we feel like it's disempowering, or we feel like people don't take us seriously, but.
You still have to do it. You still have to do it is because of the passion. Like I used to do that too. Like if I was really passionate, like you would hear my voice shake or might've been cry, like, but it's, it's, you know,
Angel Cellucci: [00:54:58] Oh, I, I can cry and yell at the same time. Trust me. I'll be like, don't look at these tears, write it down, you know, that kind of thing.
So we can, and that's because we are feeling beings. Having a human experience. Hey, I cry at commercials, but that's that doesn't not lessen my power and it doesn't listen to your power at all. Yes. Oh honey. I love this love. Love. Thank you so much. Naseema this was like the best ever.
Hey there I’m Naseema
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