Long-Term Care Planning Part 2 - Expert Edition Episode 14
Our Expert CFP Dr. Jay and I revisit the long term care planning conversation and what I discovered from my conversation with my parents. To say that I feel underprepared is an understatement. Dr. Jay provides resources and things to consider when taking on the responsibility of caring for aging loved ones.
Have you created a plan for when you eventually need assistance with everyday activities and are unable to care for yourself for a long period of time? Do you know what you would do if the sole responsibility of long-term care for a loved one falls on you?
Resource Mentioned:
Aging Life Care
About our expert:
Dr. Jay Zigmont, CFP®, and his wife are Childfree and live in Water Valley, MS. He has a Ph.D. in Adult Learning from the University of Connecticut and is a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™ and Childfree Wealth Specialist. He is the founder of Childfree Wealth, a life and financial planning firm specializing in helping Childfree Individuals and the author of “Portraits of Childfree Wealth”.
He has been featured in Fortune, Forbes, MarketWatch, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Business Insider, CNBC, and many other publications.
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TRANSCRIPT:
[00:00:00] Naseema: What's up, what's up, what's up? My financially intentional people. We are back with Dr. Jay, and we are going to talk about this interesting subject or follow up on the subject of long-term care insurance after having the conversation with my dad about his insurance, which went very interestingly. But that's what we're talking about today.
Hey, Dr. Jay.
[00:00:28] Dr. Jay: You know, I had to ask, cause it was a while ago that we like talked about and you're like, I'm gonna go talk to my dad. And it's funny because this elder care issue is a huge one. You know, how do you like, help your parents through it? And actually it may have more impact your financial plan than your own choices.
So, okay. don't leave me suspense. What did dad say? .
[00:00:45] Naseema: He was like, I don't know,
[00:00:52] Dr. Jay: And you left it there. You're like, thanks guys. No.
[00:00:55] Naseema: You know, I didn't. I was like, listen, you know. I'm the one that's going to have to take care of you, so I need you to find this paperwork. I need you to call the retirement people and see if you have it in place. And basically he was like, I don't think so, because I was like, it was something that you would have to pay for.
Like, I mean, and I think this is where a lot of people are at, because they're just like, I don't know if I had it, but if you're like, did you pay for it? Is something that you remember coming out of your check? They're like, I don't think so then, and so that's kind of where he was at, or he was like, I might have had it at one point and then I canceled it.
And so I was like, okay, so this is what you need to look into. And so I'm telling my stepmom, and to give you a little bit of background about my stepmom, my stepmom is, Soma and born, immigrated to Canada during the wars in Somalia. So came up in Canada and you know, they have a totally different system.
Mm-hmm. of retiring and so she had like all this pension and stuff there, but when she decided to move here, and she owned, even though my dad and her have been married for a very long time, but it's like a Muslim thing. So then she, she didn't move here until probably like eight years ago. And so her.
As an elderly person, as an older person, trying to figure out healthcare coverage, retirement coverage and all of those kind of things is like mind blowing. And so she's constantly on my dad asking questions like, well, what do you have in place? And my dad's just like, I don't know, because . He doesn't, but you know, she has had, she had those things in place in Canada, but now it's kind of null and void that she's here.
But she still has to depend on that stuff because she's here with my dad. And so that sparked a conversation which. Got her pretty upset where she was like, I've told your dad to get these documents in order to give them to you because you're the only one who knows how to figure them out. And also, we don't even have our will in place.
We don't have our trust in place. And if one of us dies, I have a crazy sister. If one of us dies, I don't want your crazy sister coming here and try to take this house. And that's what she'll. and I talked to your dad and he's just so like, oh, that's not gonna happen. And so it sparked that conversation.
And you know, we made some appointments with, you know, our estate planner and he's supposed to find that paperwork for me. Now, mind you, when did we record this episode? And I talked to him the next day. I have yet to see that paperwork. But it's something that I have to constantly be on him about.
But it's also something that now I have to think seriously about as far as my finances, cuz I'm honestly only planned for me and my kids. But after that episode, I had to think like, now I gotta plan for my daddy and my stepmom too, because there ain't nobody else who's gonna take care of them. And I have other brothers and sisters.
Mind you. It's not just me, but it's just.
[00:04:29] Dr. Jay: And by the way, your discussion is completely normal. Like this is exactly how it goes, doesn't matter, kind of the history, all that. It, it just kind of is, and it's really an awkward conversation to start, Hey dad, I wanna ask you about your finances. And he is like, what the heck are you doing?
Poking in there. And then you gotta work it through. And I think the hard part is people don't wanna have the conversation. So they don't until like the person's like had a stroke or you know, something's happened and now they're trying to figure it out. And that's just hell. Like I, now, mind you, I, I'm a little biased, so my mother's been disabled my whole life, you know, since I was like 16.
So like, I've dealt with this, me and my sister have a whole system for sharing how do we do this and taking turns. And so it's kind of just been part of my life. And I came outta healthcare and I got healthcare and finance together and it's like, yep. And I, I can tell you right now, I have no clue what her will is or what the paperwork is.
Cause it's just whatever, you know. We'll, you know, we'll pick which battles we have to. And, and that's the hard part. And, and it's funny when you talk about your example, your stepmom, is she still a citizen of Canada or was she ever a citizen? She
[00:05:37] Naseema: just got her citizenship last year
[00:05:41] Dr. Jay: in
[00:05:41] Naseema: the us. In the us.
[00:05:44] Dr. Jay: She has Canadian citizen when she was there.
[00:05:48] Naseema: You know what I wanna say she is, but I can't a hundred percent say she is. I think she. Became a citizen. She, she was there for a very long time and she worked for the government. So I wanna say that she is a citizen. Yeah. But I d I'm like 99% sure.
[00:06:05] Dr. Jay: Okay. So it, by the way, she needs to not give up that citizenship.
[00:06:09] Naseema: I don't think she, I think she has dual citizenship. Okay. But, so that is another thing to .
[00:06:15] Dr. Jay: Yeah. Oh yeah. No, I'm gonna make a list. You gotta ask them. Yeah. So Canadian citizens who are hanging in the US or else. . They're like, all right, for my long-term care, when I get old, I'm just going back to Canada because they actually provide for it.
Mm-hmm. , it's a valid, an option. You know, I don't know what Canada's gonna love me saying that, but it works. Like, go pay the bill there. That doesn't cover your dad at all. But that's the reality checking, you know, it's so popular now. The term is the sandwich generation. Take care of your kids and your parents at the same.
And for those of us that are child free, when you're taking care of your parents, but you have no kids, we're called the open face sandwich , you know, we just gotta take care of 'em also. But it's like, and you're right in families, like there's usually one or two people that have to carry it all, which sounds like it's gonna be gonna be you, because the other option, you'd be like, you know what?
All right dad, you're on your own. Good luck. But I don't see that in you. Is that fair?
[00:07:09] Naseema: I'm not gonna do that . I, I can't. I couldn't. I, I couldn't.
[00:07:15] Dr. Jay: But you're saying your brothers and sisters can,
[00:07:18] Naseema: they're children. I feel like they're still children. Like they haven't came of age yet. You know what I'm saying?
And so they get a pass. For the most part.
[00:07:26] Dr. Jay: They don't get a pass , you know, and this is one of those things. So the first thing is to start having conversations with your parents, which by the way, really awkward. Like, but you need to have it now. How old's your dad?
[00:07:40] Naseema: 66.
[00:07:41] Dr. Jay: Cool. Yeah. If you hit 65 in the US you get about 20 more years.
That's just kinda how the math works. Each person's slightly different, but let you know. Let's just use some round numbers. Mm-hmm. , on average, you know women will be 3.7 years in long-term care. Men are two point. But then we have like that going downhill routine where like they don't really need care, but they need someone to like run to appointments and make sure they're eating and you know, like basic needs.
[00:08:10] Naseema: By the way, my grandfather just turned 90, 95 last week. Yeah. .
[00:08:14] Dr. Jay: So you got some long livers in your family. Yes. And by the way, sometimes grandpa's a good way to talk to dad about his. Oh my God. You're dealing with all that with grandpa? How about we deal this now for you, right? Mm-hmm. . Okay. So one of the first questions is a set of boundaries.
So I'm gonna ask you these questions in the Seema and we'll kind of lay it out. Is it okay if dad moves in with you? Yeah. Okay. For how long? Forever. All right. With stepmom? Yes. All right, so, so that means you're never leaving California
[00:08:56] Naseema: Don't go with me wherever I go. They're with me wherever I go. Yeah.
[00:09:02] Dr. Jay: I'm just playing this out, you know? So me and my wife, Our rule is nobody lives with us. Mm-hmm. , we're just kinda like, that's it. We know that's just not gonna work. And, and that might sound cruel, but it's just kind of, we just know it's just not gonna work.
It's boundaries. It is, it is about setting boundaries. That's the first step. You said, okay, dad can come live with me. So can stepmom. Now, what happens if you have to cut back? Work to take care of, take care of dad. You okay with that? Yeah. How you gonna pay your bill? Oh, short For the short term. I heard
[00:09:34] Naseema: that like short term, it has to be very short term.
Yeah, I couldn't do it for longer than a year.
[00:09:40] Dr. Jay: so you get the problem. Well, you're a nurse, you can take care of dad.
[00:09:44] Naseema: Listen, I don't wanna make my dad, I'm honey. Oh, no, no. I'm gonna tell you that right now. I'm a nurse at a hospital to strangers. When I come home. I don't want to be a nurse like. , and I get it.
It's my dad and stuff, but that is hard work. Like I cannot do that. And I don't think that family members should be subjected to that because it's, it's like too, it's like too emotional. You're too attached. Like you have to have somebody else do that. I don't believe that. Just because I'm a nurse, I can be a caregiver.
Those are two different roles.
[00:10:19] Dr. Jay: I'm with you, but I'm testing your boundaries. So what you just said is, dad can live there. I'll help him with his food, but medical stuff, he's on his own.
[00:10:27] Naseema: No, I would have to pay for somebody.
[00:10:30] Dr. Jay: Okay, so we're gonna pay for somebody. So now you're gonna be a nurse, hiring a nurse.
Mm-hmm. . You okay with that? Mm-hmm. , I asked that question cuz not everybody, you know, like this is one of those like mm-hmm. . When, when it comes to caring for your parents, it's a question of do you wanna give your time, your money, your skills? Like that's what I'm running down this list, right? Because these are the boundaries.
Mm-hmm. . Okay. So, all right, so dad, Whatever has some type of problem, heaven forbid. And he says 67, you're, he's gonna spend the next 19 years living in your house. You okay with? . Mm-hmm.
So yes. The, the living together thing, you know, a lot of states have now actually added in like accessory apartments as an option where you can like hat on mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. , they get expensive. You're in California, everything's like triple the price, but like some states can get away with it. Mm-hmm.
but when people go, oh yeah, my parents can live with me. They're thinking like six months a year and you know, it's not gonna be six months or a. . Mm-hmm. . All right. And if you, if you think you could handle it for six months, I'm gonna tell you right now, they're gonna move in and never leave. And you're gonna be decades later and be like, what the heck did I sign up for?
Mm-hmm. . Or we get the alternative, especially for those that don't have kids, where you're gonna move in with the parents, which is its own, you know, sometimes it's easier, whatever. But we have to set this boundary and we have to set it now, not when there's a medical. . Mm-hmm. dad slips and falls and breaks.
A hip is not. When you wanna have these discussions, you wanna know in advance what are you willing to do because when they're hurt, you're willing to like bend down your boundaries. Yeah. And I don't want you to do that. And if you're married, you need to have this conversation with your spouse. Yeah. I might be okay with my mother living with us.
But I'm not okay with my mother-in-law living with us . And by the way, it's probably the flip flop for my wife. I'm just kinda Right. Exactly. That's why we set the rule. Nobody lives with
[00:12:32] Naseema: us. Right. Because there's just too much problems. Yeah.
[00:12:35] Dr. Jay: And, and I think that's the hard part of this. And you got a spouse now you get really got, you might have force it of four different parents to handle mm-hmm.
Oh. Like it's ridiculous. . And what gets really kind of worse in this, the parent situation, what happens when one person's parents are well prepared and one is not? Do we give money to one, but not the other? One's healthy? One's not like, oh, so what's happened is in the US life expectancy has gone, you know, it's, it's gone up.
Over the years, our support for seniors has gone down. I mean, In the us you know, Medicaid is what's gonna care, take care of long-term care, and that's not great care. Medicare is gonna take care of healthcare, which is not always the best. So we're having to fill in the blanks. and, and I, I, it's one of those things where like I have people that they're in their forties and now they're having to like raise, you know, and diaper their parents who are in their seventies, and I'm like, I'm not doing that.
I'm just not, I don't, and I feel bad for saying it, but I'm not doing it.
[00:13:49] Naseema: I mean, it's nothing wrong with saying that It's not easy. Listen, I'm a labor and delivery nurse for a reason. Like there's certain things I will and won't do, you know? So listen, I get it.
[00:14:04] Dr. Jay: And, and then we get to the financial question.
So, all right, Naima, how much of your retirement are you willing to give up for your parents? Cuz here's where this goes. If you cut back on work, you're, you're really cutting back on your retirement. Or if you have to stop work for a year, you know, somebody has an intensive thing, you. Now we're, we're not even, I mean, we have to pull from our retirement.
So how much of your financial security are you willing to give up for your dad?
[00:14:31] Naseema: I don't know. . I don't know. I mean, so we have F M L A, which helps,
[00:14:41] Dr. Jay: which does recover your money. That only covers
[00:14:43] Naseema: your job. No, just cover my, that only protects my job. Right. So yeah. I don't know. That's a tricky question.
And it, and it's like, it's like one of those, it depends things because if you're saying that this is gonna be a decade plus long thing, that's pretty substantial. That's like all of my money. But he has a retirement and he has, but it's just like in Medicare, but it's
[00:15:12] Dr. Jay: like, I'm not talking about his money yet, because Okay.
You have to set your boundary first, right? Okay. All right. At some point you're gonna have to , you know, let him hang out there now on his own and say, all right, this is what you have for money and good. And that's where it's like, that really feels bad cuz you're like, I have the money, but I'm not willing to give it.
And this is where people are like, but I would give it, I'd give it all. Well then you're, you know, $108,000 a year for long-term care. Okay? You can burn through your savings really,
[00:15:41] Naseema: really fast. Yes. Mm-hmm. . All right.
[00:15:45] Dr. Jay: And, and that's
[00:15:46] Naseema: just for one person. Uhhuh . And we haven't even talked about my mama, which we probably won't
[00:15:54] Dr. Jay: Well, you, you didn't bring it up, so I was avoiding it. . You know, especially since you said, you know, we gotta split and now are they gonna live under the same roof with you? Uhhuh? ? No. Like, like that's fireworks. I, I can just tell, right. So where I'm going with this, it's a question of what you're willing to give up.
So I interviewed a couple for my book and really interesting she had a really good job project manager for an organization doing well and her father. Terminal cancer. And actually her husband ended up quitting his job just to cart dad around to chemo and all the other stuff. And they lived on one salary for a long time to take care of dad and it was the right decision for them.
But like, do the math on that. All right. That's not easy. Luckily they were, you know, they had no debt. They were financially independent enough they could do that, but I don't know, it's expensive as heck. Yeah, besides the caregiver fatigue and all the other stuff that comes with it and you know. Hmm. Okay.
So for those people that are listening, I'm gonna have to have Naima like take clips of this put on Instagram. She just can see her face cuz she's like, really? I don't know why we're talking about this stuff. Like, this is just like giving me heartburn and just, you know,
[00:17:14] Naseema: No, but seriously, it is like, because I mean, like I talk about money all the time, right?
But still, this issue is still something that is like so unknown. I don't readily talk about it, which means I don't readily think about it, but just the thought of the sacrifices and, and the fact that, you know, it's, it. me. That's gonna have to be the one to step up and do this is it is causing me heartburn.
Like I, I actually physically have heartburn right now. .
[00:17:51] Dr. Jay: So I, I'm gonna cause you a little bit more and I apologize. It's okay. Do the math. Mm-hmm. , your kids are gonna go to college at the same time. Dad needs care. Mm-hmm. . . It's a double whammy. Financially. Yeah. I mean, almost. Yeah.
[00:18:10] Naseema: Look at it. Yeah. That's a lot.
That's a lot. . I'll be like, your college education is taking care of your grandfather. . I'm just kidding. Wouldn't do that to my kids. Well, I know
[00:18:25] Dr. Jay: people do that. Like, Hey, you get to live with grandpa and you get his house when he. . Right. You know, and, but then you gotta take care of grandpa and you know, okay, those are options, but not nice.
Right. Right. So first step is the boundary. Second step is asking them about their stuff, which by the way mm-hmm. always a fun conversation as you just learned. Like, guys, I don't know, I don't know. Here's the, here's the checklist. So they gotta have a will and you gotta have a copy of it, like mm-hmm. , the, the, the nightmare is, oh, you're the executive of the will, but it's in a safe deposit box that you owe access to.
Like, thanks dad. You know? Right. It becomes an issue. Living Will is the medical power attorney. and you have to pick who in your family's gonna make the decisions. I was reviewing one the other day. Now mind you, I review 'em from a financial standpoint, not legal standpoint, but the example was for grandma, the, the kids, two of them together will make the decision.
Now if you've ever tried to get two family members to make a decision about their mom or a grandma, it's not gonna happen. Yeah. Like getting two people to agree on, you know, whether we're gonna pull the plug or not is not gonna happen. That's why I recommend somebody be the primary and somebody be a secondary, a backup.
That makes good sense. Not we have to decide together. Two people deciding together. Whew. Financially, medically doesn't work. So nama, are you gonna make the choices for your dad medical? Yes.
[00:19:51] Naseema: It'll be me
[00:19:51] Dr. Jay: alone. Okay. Then the other one we have is the financial power of attorney, which you will see depend state.
There's a thing called springville, which means like when they're incapacitated, other times. , it's, you know, some states don't allow that, but are you gonna be making your dad's financial decisions,
[00:20:07] Naseema: which, who's not optimal, but I think I'd be the only one he would trust to do that too.
[00:20:13] Dr. Jay: Okay. When it comes to the, by the way, for the medical one, make sure it's on file with like the primary care doc and you have a copy.
Mm-hmm. , same for the mm-hmm. , the, when it comes to the financial, what you also need to go with that is in a case I die file, which is like, where are their accounts? What's their insurance? What's their, , all of that, and you wanna make sure the beneficiaries are set to match the will. But it comes to a point with family members where it's gonna be easier for you to take over finances now than have two people have mixed hands or whatever.
And it's a kind of matter of. Elder abuse and other things and financial fraud and things that happened to, to elders. At some point you're gonna need to say like, all right dad, I got it, and mm-hmm. stop him from doing anything with it. Also, you wanna get listed on his accounts as a trusted person.
Mm-hmm. Now this is a little different than a power of attorney. It's someone that say like, DAB goes in and like tries wiring $20,000 to someone. The bank goes, wait a minute, he's never wired money ever to anyone they call a trusted person. Like, is this right? It now that trusted person doesn't have control, but it's just like a, a speed bump to go.
It's a safety check. Yeah. Wait a minute. It's kind of to protect dad from himself. You know, my grandmother got sold a cruise and she had never left the US in her, in her life. And you know, like it was just, they called it the wrong time. She had her credit card and gave the numbers and the, the, the current scam is, you know, oh, your nephew is in some country and you know, was arrested or whatever, and needs bail and.
and, and like setting that all the time. Mm-hmm. .
[00:21:54] Naseema: Mm-hmm. .
[00:21:55] Dr. Jay: Yep. I've heard that. All right. So the trusted person's job is to kind of get in the way there. Now here's the question you said, and I'm using your words. So we have the crazy sister. Mm-hmm. , how's it gonna go when you are managing dad's? that she thinks it's gonna be hers, ,
[00:22:14] Naseema: all those conversations are not gonna be good.
Oh yeah. You know that that's when they come out the woodwork, they've been missing for years. Then all, all of a sudden spring up like, well, I should get this and I should get that. Yeah. Or my kids are just as entitled to everything as your kids and all this kind of. .
[00:22:34] Dr. Jay: Yep. And, and where we see this a lot is one family member does all the caring for dad, mom, grandma, whatever.
That person passes and then everybody comes outta the woodwork. Mm-hmm. going with their hands out going, so how are we gonna sell the house? And how are we, and I'm like, you didn't care for them when they were sick. But like they're not even buried in the ground and you're asking for the money already.
Mm-hmm. , and I'm not exaggerating at all,
[00:23:00] Naseema: like serious. I see it all the time, like people just have this sense of entitlement. Like, well, that's just because they're an offspring, that they automatically. are supposed to get a certain percentage of this person's death benefits or whatever they have. No , that's not how it works.
[00:23:22] Dr. Jay: Yep. And what happens with this is now we get into contested wills and all the other, it's just a nightmare if you don't. If you have a will, at least you got something. You know, the only reason not to get a will is if you hate your family and you want them to fight over it. You know, like, it's just kinda like how it goes.
And the reality check is, and Sammy, you're gonna do all this for your dad, and then all your siblings are gonna come by and smack you for, you know, something. You, you know, oh no, you know, you spent too much of his money on his healthcare and you're like, really? It was his money? Like it is rather simple, but people.
Get in the middle of this. Mm-hmm. . So really dad needs to be having those conversations with everybody in advance, but Hmm.
[00:24:05] Naseema: Doesn't really happen. Nah, he ain't gonna do that. You know, they don't, they don't like to, you know, stir the pot. That's the whole thing. Oh. We just wanna keep it peaceful. Not knowing that all they're doing is passing that down for something for me to handle, and it's not gonna be taken the same.
[00:24:22] Dr. Jay: and some lawyers too. Cause that's kinda exactly what we're going towards. Exactly. So, so you wanna have that all written down. What do you want mm-hmm. , you know, even down to like, where are gonna be buried or whatever else. Mm-hmm. , you know, where's all the secret money? What's that? And part of it is to have a discussion about like, do I spend all your money on healthcare for you or not?
Right. You know, so, so my grandmother worked her whole life actually owned a, a restaurant, a motel. Sold that had a bunch of money and just hated being in a nursing home. So we paid for 24 hour care for her in her house for years, and pretty much every penny she ever owned went to pay for that. But she was happier in her house.
Mm-hmm. , I'm okay with that. There are family members that are like, wait a minute, you know, you're spending my inheritance? No, that's her money until she dies. Okay. Like, we're gonna spend it on their, he. And, and it becomes a balancing act. So part of the stuff to help you, if one of your loved ones is sick, is to actually hire an aging care manager.
Mm-hmm. . And, and these are usually nurses or social workers who can fight with the insurance company, make your healthcare's right. But it's also somebody you can blame and say, Hey, they said this is what dad needs. I'm following their advice. Mm-hmm. in particular, it's important for you and Naima because you're a nurse.
They're gonna think it's your judgment. if you can blame somebody else, you're like, yes, I agree with them. But this was their recommendation. It was their
[00:25:47] Naseema: decision. Yeah. Mm-hmm. ,
[00:25:50] Dr. Jay: the other one, and, and this is a little bit of a shameless plug, but go with it, is to get a financial planner to help you with their finances and go through it.
Mm-hmm. , so mm-hmm. , I work with child free folks and the only parents I take right now are parents of my child free folks. Mm-hmm. of saying, Hey, how do we help dad and mom with their finances and what do they qualify for and do they have an estate plan and how is it there? All that. The reality check is, it's gonna be really hard even though you are a financial expert in the SEMA for you to tell your dad about his finances, like it just,
[00:26:20] Naseema: no.
Mm-hmm. That's not, I wouldn't do that. And, and I, and the thing is, it's still that re kind of like, respect thing that happens, like, you know, and then there's this whole thing. I don't know, there's black people, you know, well, why are you trying to be all up in my business? Like that's, that's the doc, not your place as a child, like this grown folk stuff.
Even though I'm very grown with my own kids. Mm-hmm. , it still becomes like this grown folks business. Like you shouldn't be concerned about it. But then, If they get sick and when they get sick, guess who the first person they call is. So, you know, it's just like this thing like, oh, it is so hard to have these conversations.
Yeah. And then like, even when I tried to have this conversation with my grandfather, for example it was just like, well, that's. Somebody else's job. Like, that's my uncle's job, right? And I'm just like, well, has he taken care of it? That's all I wanna know is, has he taken care of it? And it was basically like, well, that's really not your business, but it really is.
[00:27:27] Dr. Jay: Well, I mean, this is a boundary issue and if they say it's not your business, and okay, fine, I'll step away completely. Right now, by the way, in my heart I might not, but like, you know, yeah, I, I have to expect it to an extent, what I have done with some people, and it does work well. Is, let's say you're considered about grandpa, you pay for an aging care manager to, to look on the medical side, and you pay for a financial planner for a couple hours for him.
Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , I don't need to know anything about it, right? Mm-hmm. , I'm gonna pay for some professionals to help you through it right now, by the way. They have to be willing, right? It is, it is a way to do it for you to be, to feel good about it. , you know, you, you've hired a fiduciary to kind of look at it and go, all right, grandpa, work on this stuff.
I have said sometimes where like, you know, grandpa will say, oh yeah, I wanna bring so and so into the meeting, that's fine too. Mm-hmm. more than you wanna do it alone, that's fine too. Mm-hmm. . But now you have a professional who's kind of, who can say, dude, you don't have a will get one. You know, where if you say it, they're like, well, that just means you want my.
No, I don't really care about your stuff. I just want you to have it all in paperwork so that it doesn't get like stolen from you or just disappear.
[00:28:36] Naseema: Now I have to say, as a nurse, this is my very first time ever hearing about an aging care professional. Like that is like kind of mind blowing to me, and I'm so glad you brought it up because I think it's kind of a genius role.
I wouldn't be able to. But to, to be in the healthcare space all these years as a nurse, as a nurse practitioner, and not even know that that existed. It's kind of shameful and I feel bad, but then I think I also feel like it's a failure in the system because that is something that should be readily known.
But maybe it's because I don't work with aging and older people that I don't know that. But still, I don't think that. You know, so I, I kind of wanna create a poll to see how many people actually know that role exists.
[00:29:32] Dr. Jay: And you got a whole bunch of nurses now listening to this going, maybe I should do that job.
Like it actually pays well for people to do it well. So in the healthcare world, you'll have like social workers on the floor, and that's kind of a start to it. But here's the thing. The social workers that are there for the hospital, Hmm. Aren't there a hundred percent for the patient? Is that fair? A hundred percent.
I'm just being polite about it. Sometimes like your city or county will have a social worker that's, you know, like you can leverage. But this, you know, it's like an aging care manager. They call 'em geriatric care managers. People don't like the term geriatric, by the way. It doesn't have to always be aging.
Sometimes, like yeah, chronic illness or other things is somebody you pay to fight with the healthcare. I'll give you an example of this. One of my colleagues has one for her grandmother. Grandmother's got in-home care and grandma got Covid and everybody was providing in-home care just like left.
We're like, yep, I'm not taking care of grandma in her house. Now we can have a separate discussion about what that means, but the aging care manager got on the phone, got all the P P P P E in place, got new care of people in place, and grandma was okay. That's something, somebody that has those contacts that can.
That can work it through, figure out if we can cover with health insurance or who's gotta pay for this. And by the way, they get paid. Well, I mean, you know, they're close to 200 bucks an hour for doing it. Right. So wait,
[00:30:55] Naseema: hard to, so let's, let's speak about the pay though. Like 200 bucks an hour, is this coming?
Is this private pay or is this through your
[00:31:02] Dr. Jay: insurance? Oh no, you're paying for it. And you're calling the tomb on this one? Yeah. Health insurance will have social workers also. Mm-hmm. if those social workers are all trying to prevent you from using the insurance. Mm-hmm. . . All
[00:31:14] Naseema: right. Oh, this great healthcare system in this country.
I so love it. Don't you just love it, Dr. Jay?
[00:31:22] Dr. Jay: Yeah. Well that's, we have to pay somebody to be our advocate to actually even just like make a throat you, like, you know, so what happens when you're actually sick, navigating the healthcare system's even harder and forget billing and all the other fun stuff he comes with it.
So I'm a big proponent of aging care managers, but here's the problem. finding a good one is really hard because the ones that are good are already
[00:31:43] Naseema: working. They're bu they're booked and busy, honey, like because I mean, like I can imagine like, it's not a ti it's not a a hidden and acquitted thing.
It's not like a one time thing, like they are working with these people over a course of their chronic illness or they're working with. These people over the course of their aging life. And so it's one of those things like once you get a caseload, which you really, how much can you take on when you have to navigate this convoluted system?
Like yeah, I get it. Like they are hard to find and they are in high demand.
[00:32:18] Dr. Jay: Yep. So here's a couple tips on this. There's a, actually a website's called aging lifecare.org so they can find some people in your area, but I also want you to talk to your friends about it because somebody knows someone. , you know, and it's like a, it's like a secret.
Oh, I use so-and-so and she's phenomenal, but she's busy. Well, I want her number. I wanna get to know her. I'm gonna pay her for an hour just so that she says hi to me and knows I know I exist. And then when I need her, she's there. You know, so one of, one of my people I work with, they, you know, dad's got Alzheimer's.
Well, that's a huge medical issue, a huge care. An aging life care manager can come in and go, let me give you an analysis of what's going on and where we're going and what do we got for care options? How do we fit this? Because if you go to the doctor and you say, Hey, you know, dad's got Alzheimer's, what should I do?
They go, well, here's the the care a lot. They don't answer the question like, can you take care of it at home? Do they have to be in a facility? They're using you. So yeah, they're like, oh, NABA, you're a nurse. You can handle this. Yeah. And you're like, Dad, just, you know, my grandfather had Alzheimer's. He drove through the house with the car.
Okay. Seriously, like those things happened, like grandpa just drove, drove through the house. I can't care for him. And
[00:33:34] Naseema: like, and I, I actually remember I was in the hospital with my friend's dad. So this is one of my friends that I just grew up with. Not my dad, but something happened in the hospital. He had a little seizure and I wasn't, I had to be the nurse in the room because the nurses were Mia a.
So then all of a sudden they had made the decision that he was gonna go to palliative care, and they were asking, the doctors were asking me, yeah, so should we transfer him? Home, does he need to go to this facility? I'm like, I am a visitor. Like I literally just came as a visitor. So like, just to put that into context for you, like the decisions that you think would be.
Made by a provider, , they're like, I don't handle that. I just handle his care here. You gotta figure out the rest. Or somebody has to figure out the rest. So just put that in perspective for people because it happens.
[00:34:32] Dr. Jay: Yep. Then you wonder why I'm saying pay professional. Yeah. You're a medical person and you're pushing back.
If you are a non-medical person. I'm like, I have no clue. That's why I'm here. For you to tell me. Like , yes. You know? And they go, well, what insurance do they have? I don't have a clue. , you know, what do they qualify? I don't know is, and that's where. , you know, I have a lot of family members taking care of elders and I'm like, pay for professionals on both the medical, financial, mm-hmm.
And then the other one is the legal, of course, you know, state planning, all the paperwork. Mm-hmm. pay for that and it just gives you more room in your heart to, to care for 'em. I shouldn't have to worry about should dad be in a home or not. I should have somebody give me a recommendation and then I'll follow a recommendation if I trust it.
and then I can just care for dad. That's the difference. Yep. I don't know. Na, Seema, I'm throwing a lot at you. You, you look like usually we do these, you're, you're, you're pretty engaged and laughing and have a good time. Like you're looking like, man, this is, well, cause
[00:35:34] Naseema: I'm like, I'm, because I'm, and I, I think this is like really good advice.
And so just like you said, you have to pay for a professional. Like medically, financially and legally to handle those things so you can deal with the emotional piece. I think that's the biggest takeaway from this because. This is something that a lot of people just don't talk about and even in the personal finance pace, we don't talk enough about this.
And so it's not something that's on the forefront of our brain and it, it does it, it is making me uncomfortable cuz I'm just like, Well, shit, I have to put this stuff in place and, and then I'm also thinking from my client's perspective, who still won't do the little things to get their finances in order.
You know, like how much effort it would take for them to now set up A care planner for their parents. Then set up a CFP for their parents, then set up an estate planning attorney when they haven't even done that for themselves. And so I'm thinking about it on both sides, like. . I haven't put these things in place, Nana.
It's easy for, it's easier for me to put these in place because I know exactly who to call. Like when you said that, except for the care planner, I, I know who to call and just be like, listen, we gotta do this stuff. Let's pay for a couple hours and let's get this stuff in order. And I know I'm going to do that, but I know that 99% of people just don't do this.
And so I'm wondering like, how do people handle this? Yep. Like it's a problem.
[00:37:10] Dr. Jay: And, and, and the problem, and, and I apologize, I made a little bit of downer take, cause the one thing you didn't mention was boundaries. And we started with the boundaries, then we go to paying for people. But the problem is if you wait until there's an issue, you're kind of outta luck.
Mm-hmm. , you know, if you wait, you know, oh, dad's got dementia, what should we do now? Dad can't even do his paperwork and you don't have a clue where his accounts are and. , now we're starting at a rough spot. So you gotta be having these conversation well before there's an issue. You know, when we talk about cognitive decline, you know, Alzheimer's and dementia, stroke, other things, if they lose their mental capacity, they may not be able to even sign the paperwork, which now we're talking about courts and all the other fun stuff with it.
And that's, I can't even imagine the nightmare there. So you gotta be having these conversations and people go, well, when I'm like now, well, dad's not that old. I don't care. Like just start the conversation now. Well, but I'm young and there. Yeah. That's nice. and then I have people that have a stroke in, in their fifties.
And you know, next thing you know, it's changed their whole life, you know, and there's still, you know, 30 years of care they need. I, I, I mean it's, it's the intersection between finance and medical. And by the way, in the US those two, both systems are a bit broken , and now we have to take care of it Our.
Right.
[00:38:36] Naseema: Oh Lord, this is a lot . So I'm like, how can I fade to the background and be that child that just comes to collect the money at the end? ,
[00:38:48] Dr. Jay: I, I'd love to be that, but my parents got nothing. You know, like Right. It, it's one of those things where we need to just be okay having con rough conversations and we're not.
You know, I, I had another one from my book I interviewed. She did all this paperwork for her parents cuz they were gonna move in with her and looked at changing the house and she decided that she would have all the paperwork and then her husband died at 50, but she never will or anything in place there.
And by the way, when I say husband, they were together for 20 years, but not actually married. So that makes the paperwork even harder, you know? And they're like, oh, I did that all for my parents. Cause I knew they needed it, but I didn't do it for myself. So we gotta like do it all at once and, and people get overwhelmed.
I'm like, just do one piece at a time. Just start a conversation. They go, well, how do I start the conversation? You say, well, Dr. Jay said I had to talk to you about this. You know, y'all aren't my clients, but I don't care if you use my name in vain. That's perfectly fine. And say, Hey, this financial planner guy said I need to talk to you about what your finances are.
What's your medical, what's your wills? And little will, and they're gonna go, all right, fine. Cuz now they don't think you're just there for the money. And start the conversation now. You know, I, I just. , it's gonna be awkward, but it's better done now. When something happens,
[00:40:12] Naseema: I concur. I could say, because I've kind of initiated those conversations, it's kind of hard because, you know, then they kind of just like put it off and they're just like, oh, we can talk about it later.
Or you wait for, you're waiting for paperwork and then they never kind of get it and you have to bring it back up. It's like when somebody owes you money, you know, the communication becomes, Farse, you know, , it really feels like that. It's like I'm trying to help you. Like, can you like, just do your part, but it's not easy.
[00:40:43] Dr. Jay: Well, and, and the fun part is your dad is actually waiting you out and he's won so far. If I didn't, if we didn't have this podcast, he would've been like, well, you know, I know the paper's supposed to, he was giving that at some point. Oh
[00:40:53] Naseema: yeah, I would've had the conversation. I just got back. So,
[00:40:59] Dr. Jay: Yeah, I think the bottom line is if you don't have these conversations, you're gonna be giving up your home, your retirement, and other things for them, which is your choice to give up or not. But I wanna have a plan for it so that I'm not giving up my entire career, my life, my money to care for my loved one.
[00:41:21] Naseema: Something to think about, something to plan for more conversations, more difficult conversations to have, but much needed. And I think what's more important is like having a plan in place and not just like being woe is me and this is gonna be hard and I'm gonna be broke. But actually trying to strategize around it.
So hopefully there is some resolve and there's a. because yeah, like you said, like, shoot, it might be me that's gone , and then who's gonna do it? You know? So we need to think about these things and luckily I have a plan in place for me, but that's also something to think about in my will. What if I go before my dad?
Like, is he gonna be included in getting some of those benefits? Like, you know, so I didn't even think about that and doing my estate plan.
[00:42:13] Dr. Jay: Thanks. Feel like he's not gonna need the money, so I'm just gonna give it to my kids and, you know, , and then
[00:42:18] Naseema: there it goes. Yeah. And, and then the, the killer part about it is if that's the case, then he's probably gonna be the one.
having the, you know, the lions old, like taking care of my kids because that's what he does, you know? And so, and that's also why I have the obligation, like, you know, he's taking care of me. He's a single dad took care of, take care of my kids. How can I not take care of him? But to what cost is what we have to sit down and figure out and, and talk about.
So I love that we're having this conversation even though it is a hard conversation, even though it did give me a lot of heartburn, even though it does give me a lot of difficult conversations to move forward with, but also important. And so that's why I love having you on here because we get to have those hard conversations, but with actionable.
Plans that we can put in place to address them, so I appreciate you, Dr. J. .
[00:43:15] Dr. Jay: Hey, I am always happy to do that. And it's one of those things where it's the hardest to start the conversation . and then it gets better. Yeah. You just gotta like that first like, Hey dad, I wanna have a conversation about money and Right.
That's the hard one. .
[00:43:32] Naseema: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks again Dr. Jay for this conversation as I'm sitting here with my daughter , who is only gonna be the middle one that I have to take care of ,
[00:43:44] Dr. Jay: and she's gonna have that conversation with you in about 30 years. Hey, mom, I wanna talk to you about your finances.
[00:43:49] Naseema: You know, I would hope that I would have this stuff in place already for her.
So just like I would hire those three people for my dad, I wanna do that so that my kids don't have to worry about that for me. And I think. . That's an important conversation that we need to have too in the personal finance space. Like how to protect your kids from having to be in the position that most of us are in, and how to plan for that because it's expensive.
But there are some for innovative things, like everything is easier to pay for the planning than it is to pay for it in the backend, especially. I probate court is insane. And then your, and then your wishes aren't being met so
[00:44:38] Dr. Jay: well and it's such a big issue. One of my colleagues, Daniel Amira just started a firm spark Financial and all she does is deal with the sandwich generation people caring for their kids and their parents at the same time because like balancing those two.
and you know, who gets what and where and how do we not like lose ourselves in the middle? It's a hard one. And, and, you know, yeah, I, I deal with child free folks, so we don't have the same, we have a different set of issues, but it, it, caregiver fatigue is real and you gotta have a plan for it and a balance and I don't know, you know, God bless you for figuring out, you know, With a whole bunch of kids.
I had enough trouble, just me and my wife and my dogs .
[00:45:16] Naseema: But so like you said, I think your firm deals with people who are child free. So you guys have that open face sandwich generation kind of thing going on. And I, and I think like in our first podcast, you share the statistics of actually child-free people typical.
Care for their parents at higher rates than you know, people that actually have kids, like parents that actually have kids. So I thought that that was an interesting statistic. But that's the people that you serve, um, primarily. So if somebody is child free and is looking for help around that, then you can kind of fill in that financial planning void for.
[00:45:56] Dr. Jay: Absolutely. We call it the, the financial bingo, which is, Hey, you don't have kids so you can take care of mom and dad.
[00:46:02] Naseema: Anyway, Dr. Jay, thank you so, so much for joining us again and dropping so much knowledge. It's so much for us to think about, but also things that we can do proactively to help, you know, deal with these issues that a lot of us don't like to think
about.
[00:46:18] Dr. Jay: Happy to be here. .
Hey there I’m Naseema
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