Getting Paid What You Deserve - Episode 73
Today, we are joined by Kelly Thompson to dive deep into the world of money and getting paid what you're worth. Kelly shares her extensive experience in banking and human resources, where she has negotiated salaries, handled compensation packages, and advocated for fair pay. She offers valuable tips on how to confidently negotiate your salary, understand compensation packages, and overcome self-doubt. Kelly also discusses the challenges women face in the workplace, including the gender pay gap and the tendency to self-reject when applying for jobs.
About our guest:
Kelli is an award-winning leadership and executive coach, keynote speaker, and author of "Closing The Confidence Gap: Boost Your Peace, Your Potential & Your Paycheck." With two decades of experience in male-dominated industries, she has received industry awards for cultivating future leaders. Kelli has coached thousands of women to lead with clarity and confidence through her no-nonsense yet compassionate approach. Her insights have been published in Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Forbes, Business Insider, and Market Watch. Her book was named a “Must Read” by the Next Big Idea Club, curated by Malcolm Gladwell, Daniel Pink, Adam Grant, and Susan Cain.
Kelli Thompson Site
Kelli Thompson Instagram
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TRANSCRIPT:
Naseema: [00:00:00] What's up my financially intentional people. I'm excited to be joined by Kelly Thompson. And today, of course we always talk about money, but we're going to be talking about getting paid your worth and negotiating and all of those good things. Cause you know, I'm all about. Pay transparency. I'm all about making sure you're getting paid your worth.
And so I'm super excited to have Kelly on because she's going to break it all down for us and just share with us some great tips on making sure you're empowered when it comes to getting what you deserve. Hey Kelly, welcome to the financially intentional podcast.
Kelli Thompson: I'm excited to talk about money.
Naseema: Yes, yes, yes. . So tell us a little bit about your background.
Like how did you get into this space?
Kelli Thompson: Yeah it was a long and winding journey. So I'll actually start from the time I was a little girl, cause I think this is relevant. So when I was a little girl, I wanted to be a [00:01:00] weather girl. I went on TV.
Naseema: you definitely look the part, I just have to say
Kelli Thompson: thank you. Yeah, for those of you who can see the video, maybe there's a chance to see the video.
I just loved it. I was a geek. I studied weather patterns and all these sorts of things. So I was a meteorology major then going into college. And once I started to actually like. Really think about the profession as an adult. I was like, Oh, I'm going to have to work the six and 10 o'clock news every night.
And then I'm not gonna be home with my family, or I'm going to do the morning news, which means you go to bed at six o'clock at night. I'm like, this is
not the lifestyle I want.
Naseema: get up at
three.
Kelli Thompson: I actually then decided just to major in political science and business, which was, just classes I liked, but I ended up working for a bank and I worked in banking.
And so naturally with banking, I started to talk a lot about money and finances and investing and returns. And then I continued to work for a bank and I actually moved into HR. And in these roles in human resources, I've done everything from recruiting and negotiating salary offers to doing first date orientation, where everybody's getting [00:02:00] all their offer letters to running HR, where we're talking about compensation philosophies and, I am still negotiating money where I'm talking about giving people raises.
And I always think to myself, it is literally not lost on me that I went from the easiest profession to talk about, which is the weather to the hardest profession to talk about, which is like HR salary, negotiating money. Fast forward, I've now left corporate, I have a corporate veteran and I'm running my own coaching executive coaching and leadership training practice.
But I still talk to my clients and women about money All of the time when people say, Hey, can you come and offer a training for my company? I still have to talk about money cause I have to tell people how much I charge. And so I'm still talking about money and I'm the author of closing the confidence gap, boost your piece, your potential and your paycheck.
And I talk about money in that book as well. So I went from talking about the weather to talking about money all of the time. And here we are.
Naseema: but I love it and I just want to know from your perspective, I know you've seen some [00:03:00] wild things when it comes to compensation packages and the ranges and what people ask for and what they don't ask for and what they're qualified for and the positions that they actually apply for and I know that there's a statistic out there.
Now, I know I'm going to get these numbers wrong, but I'm not going to put the numbers out there. I'm going to say that women feel like they need to have all the qualifications before they apply for a job versus a man, if he has two or three of the qualifications, he's applying and he's asking for the top salary range.
And so
Kelli Thompson: Mm
Naseema: I just wanted to like, get your perspective on the things that you've seen working in that space.
Kelli Thompson: Yeah, so let me just talk about the data first. That study came out of Hewlett Packard, I believe, validated by LinkedIn, but a Harvard Business Review has actually done another Brush on that. And the data is still the same. And that is that, women just wait to apply. So what I practically saw as an HR leader was this men, let's just say I have a job on the posting board.
Sometimes both internally and externally men would email [00:04:00] me. In general, I'll be like, this job looks awesome. Who do I got to talk to? Whereas women would approach me. And again, lots of times this is internal candidates. If it was on a board, sometimes externally, if I knew the person and they reached out saying, Hey, you posted this, they'd say, Oh, this job looks amazing.
Oh, I think it'd be great at it. This is my dream job. Maybe I'll get hired. But, I only meet eight or 10, eight of the 10 qualifications. Do you think I need to go back to school? Should I work longer? Should I get more experience? Just the amount of sex of a self rejection, that women would bring to that conversation.
The other thing I would notice is, is this, is that when men did apply for the job, They, Often quoted higher starting salary requirements. They didn't have the same talk track that women did where it said, maybe since I don't meet all the qualifications, maybe I shouldn't ask for the upper range.
And so what I would often tell them is no, because, if you're listening, I'm sure that, sometime in your job or in your work. You were hired off of your talent and your potential, and somebody took a risk on you because you didn't meet them. I know [00:05:00] as an HR professional and as a hiring manager, I hired people that didn't meet all of the criteria we were looking for, but they were just.
Phenomenal. And I'm going to give you another little secret. So in part of my HR time, I used to write job descriptions and write job descriptions for postings. And so what I would do is I would sit down with the hiring manager. And, when we were making that qualification list, it was like our dream list.
Like sometimes these positions were new. So we're like, I think we need somebody with this, but we probably need somebody with that. And sometimes that was like just our best guess for what we needed in the market. And I want you to know that when you're reading those sorts of things, sometimes it's that's just our best attempt at what we think we need.
And if it interests you, apply for it, have the conversation, put yourself in there. Don't self reject.
Naseema: oh, my God, I'm like, loving and eating up all of this because it's like, to be on to get to be in front of somebody that's been on the other side and can speak to those things that I tell people about, but it's just for me being from an [00:06:00] employee standpoint no, ask for these things, talk about these things and, apply for those positions.
And I love that you share that. Those are just desirable things. Those are like, and I could see myself being in that position. We really want to hire for these things because if we have these things, it will fulfill X, Y, and Z, but, realistically we'll take a person with this. And to hear that is so validating.
We know, especially for women who, like we said, Often undervalue themselves. But do you know, where that comes from? Where do we get this? Like innately
Kelli Thompson: Yeah. You know, I have a lot of theories, I think a lot of times it just comes from like our upbringing because maybe we've been like, told certain messages about money asking or promotions, we could have been told things like, Hey, it's rude to ask or negotiate your salary or, Hey, don't look pushy.
Don't look braggy. Hey, I'm just like. Talking about ones I hear all the time. It's [00:07:00] better to, be seen and be polite than to be boisterous. So sometimes too, like some of this conditioning can come from your upbringing. And I, what I really like to frame this around is y'all remember, like our mother's generation could not even open a bank account or take out a loan in her own name.
That was 1974. So if you're like around age 40, like that's your mother's generation, for those of you who are younger, it might be your grandmother's generation, but that was not all that long ago. So you have to remember the types of conversations that were happening. The other thing too, is, it wasn't that long ago where men were running corporate America and in all the boardrooms and primarily going to college and getting advanced degrees.
And so the conversation in raising girls was just different until when you think about the arc of history. This is fairly recent. So there's just like some long term embedded messages are there. I do feel encouraged that the millennial and Gen Z generation is different. I have a Gen Z daughter. She's 18 and she just got a new job and she's don't worry mom, I negotiated my salary.
And I'm [00:08:00] like, all
Naseema: my girl.
Kelli Thompson: girl. Yeah.
Naseema: But like you said, a lot of these things have shifted recently. We're seeing, enrollment rates in colleges like go up significantly. Like sometimes there's more women enrolled. I know especially for black women, like we are highly enrolled in higher education programs.
And we even make up. The majority of people with advanced degrees. But now people are seeing this shift and finally starting to see women get their compensation. But now I'm hearing, Oh you guys, you're still complaining about this gender pay gap. There's no gender pay gap.
I'm not convinced. What do you say to people that think that that's a conspiracy or
that's
Kelli Thompson: just say, look at the data. Okay, you know what, if you think there is no gender pay gap, why don't you go to your organization and ask for salary data to see if, in fact, women are being [00:09:00] paid for equal roles that men are being paid and, when it comes to years of experience, you can't count the time that they took off for maternity leave as non experienced because that all counts, right?
We can't hold that against women. And the data is there. You can ask for the data. If you don't believe it, go get the data. But what I can tell you practically in my own experience is that it, it is there. And one of the things that I'll offer for folks to consider is this. In some states and it's not I'm in Nebraska.
It's not illegal in Nebraska. Although I have written my senator because there's been bills in the legislature that ban asking for salary history from job applications because what it does is it creates an anchoring bias. Okay. So let's just talk about this. Who has traditionally been underpaid? Women and people of color.
And so let's just say that, an HR person who has no recollection of this has two candidates. She's got John, because we know there's lots of Johns that are leading companies who is asking for [00:10:00] $150,000. Because John has traditionally been paid well, he's been given lots of opportunities.
Let's say that she has Sandy. And Sandy is only being paid $100,000. And you're like, Ooh you know what? Sandy is I think she'd still be great. I bet I could get Sandy for 125, whereas we would have to pay John, 175. And again, this is very unconscious, but that conversation does enter in when you are factoring and anchoring bias.
And again, this is not about. Calling people out, but we all have very natural biases. And so what they do then is by removing salary history, it helps, women and people of color who have traditionally been underpaid, not continue that cycle of underpayment because you're like, wow, we're still giving her or him a $50,000 raise.
Yeah, but you're still underpaying them. So that's why I really encourage, women, people of color, when they're negotiating their salaries, you need to go and look to see what the market is paying. Because my hunch is, is that you may have been traditionally underpaid. So even if the job offer that you get is higher than what you currently make, yay, [00:11:00] awesome, celebrate, and go out and make sure that that is actually in alignment with market so that you're getting market pay and you aren't just blinded by the excitement of, Oh my gosh, I got a $50,000 raise.
Okay. That's great, but it isn't in market. So some things to think about.
Naseema: I'm in California. , we have paid transparency for the most part here, and especially for like state employees. But where do people find this information?
Kelli Thompson: Yeah, there's some great places and I actually have a salary negotiation guide. We can link to if you're, if
Naseema: Yes,
Kelli Thompson: to it, but here's a few places. So number one, go to LinkedIn, just go to LinkedIn and search similar job titles to what you're applying for and pay attention to a few things. Where's the job located?
Okay. We are not going to compare a job in Omaha, Nebraska to San Francisco, California. The cost of living is just different. So if you're in the Midwest, we can compare some Midwest. Okay. Lots of times LinkedIn has. Salaries posted for jobs that are very similar to yours. And so look and take advantage of that salary transparency.
That's a great place to look. You can also look at salary. com. You can look at [00:12:00] glass door. You can look at pay scale. com. There's also another startup called open comp. com, which has a lot of salary transparency for small companies. And what I tell folks is don't. necessarily match your title, match the work that you're doing for the size of company that you're doing it for in the locale that you're doing it in.
And the final place I really encourage them to go and get some really good hard data is every state has a Bureau of Labor Statistics and every state has a wage estimate system. And so like in Nebraska, you can just Google Nebraska Bureau of Labor Statistics wage estimate system. And if I'm going to apply for an HR manager role, it will tell me.
Company reported data of what HR managers are making in Nebraska in today's dollars by company size. So there's so much data out there now that you can take a look at. You just got to do a little bit of digging. And I know you and I were talking about this before talk about money. Men talk about money all the time.
So many of my clients, I have encouraged them to ask other women or their mentors. [00:13:00] Hey, what have you seen folks get paid in this role? If you've been in a role like this, what's a range I should look for? Nothing bad happens when women talk about money, because the more we talk about money and I talk about money with my clients, they're like, I am so underpaid.
I'm so glad we brought this up. Or even as entrepreneurs. Oh my gosh, that's what you're charging. Oh my gosh, I'm undercharging. Thank you. Those conversations are so helpful when we can be vulnerable enough to bring up the conversation.
Naseema: People just don't know what's possible. So I often post my salary as a labor and delivery nurse. I'm a labor and delivery nurse in the San Francisco Bay area. And so every once in a while, I'll do these posts where I show exactly how much I make and it always. Goes viral because people are like, you're lying.
why would you share this? Good for you. Oh, we are bragging. Oh, this is a flex. No, it's not. I share this so people know what's possible. So people know as a nurse who, even though I'm over qualified, I must [00:14:00] say, as a nurse, but I love what I do, but I could have had a community college degree and made the same amount of money and be able to make a living a very affordable living wage for the San Francisco Bay area.
Now, throughout the country. Nurses are not getting paid the same. So use this information to find somewhere that can fairly compensate you or know what's possible so that if you do need to make a move, you can, and so that's why I put these numbers out there, but the amount of people who tell me I'm lying is in.
Saying, and then
Kelli Thompson: I love that, we're talking about this. Yeah.
Naseema: people that like thank me and Oh my God, like I did not even know. But I share it because I'm just like, yeah, you can be a nurse and make $250,000 and work three days a week and have time with your kids. Have work life balance, be able to afford a home, like all of these things, but [00:15:00] people are appalled that I would even talk about that.
Kelli Thompson: I love this conversation because a fun fact is that I actually, we used to work for a healthcare staffing organization. So I became very familiar with nurses, travel nurses, and we ran a software that would actually allow nurses to go in. Probably what, maybe you're doing pick up peak shifts,
Naseema: Mm hmm.
Kelli Thompson: peak shifts with incentives,
incentives on top of incentives, nights, overnights, weekends, working in, sometimes units that, are offering a bonus because they're short staffed.
When we start to talk about money and what you're bringing up is nurse specific, but what I want folks to think about if they aren't a nurse, they're like I can't do that. I can't work three days a week. I can't do spiff incentive and all that sort of thing. Okay. So I want you to think about your own situation and think about what are all of the variables that would allow me to make a little bit more money to your point?
Is it moving job locations? Is it discussing bonus opportunities? Maybe if it's not bonus opportunities, will my company pay to hire me [00:16:00] an executive coach or go through a training program? Can I, find opportunities to, monetize some of my expertise outside of work? And so the conversation that you bring up, which I love your account, by the way, is Is not just about how do we maximize our income as a nurse, but I think it gets all of us thinking about what are all of the little ways, little add ons, little, I don't want to call them cheats because they're not cheats.
It's like little asks in the system that we can all use to make a little bit more money, whether it's in the form of cash or in the form of training, development, investment, tuition reimbursement, it could
Naseema: And that's the thing that I find is more often than not, first of all, people aren't asking for raises, but they're also not taking advantage of the opportunities within your organizations that could help them. Significantly and a lot of times, and especially like recently after COVID, I've seen this push, like the only way you can get ahead is if you're an entrepreneur.
First of all, entrepreneurial life isn't for everybody, but there are [00:17:00] ways that from where you are without having made the decision. to make drastic changes, you can significantly, impact how much money you're bringing home and your knowledge base and your skillset. But people just don't take advantage.
And a lot of times it's because just because they don't know that it's there.
Kelli Thompson: I love it. And I hope people continue to follow more folks like yourself. Another really interesting, at the time of this airing, my husband and I are geeks and we watch 60 Minutes on Sunday night. And so on Sunday night they had Kevin Hart on. And a lot of people think of Kevin Hart as like an actor or a comedian.
But when you actually learn the story of Kevin Hart, He runs an entire media empire and he has seven streams of income. And so what I tell corporate folks is I know you might feel like you're locked in a box. Heck, you might think that a nurse is locked in a box of you're going to make, 57 30 or 57 32 per hour.
There are other ways. And so I think really great ways to start thinking about how you can increase your income through creativity is watch [00:18:00] people who do unconventional things. To build their income, improve income streams, and just notice, Gosh, how could I apply that to my current situation?
Naseema: There is so many possibilities and I hate to harp on the nursing thing, but people don't understand that nurses can work in so many different capacities. Even me, I've worked in Fintech as a nurse, so I share those stories because people just don't know, like, how to do it.
From where they're at, what they can do. And like you said, you start to change your circle of influence and just be encouraged by people that are doing the things that you aspire to. Because even if it is in a whole different industry, there's things that are replicable and transferable to every industry, every area and whatever you want to do.
Pay attention. You can learn from everybody. So that's what I love to do. I actually like. To listen to people who have totally different backgrounds and mindsets from me because it Challenges me not to live in this echo chamber [00:19:00] of, the thoughts and the ideas and the concepts and the backgrounds of the people that look like me are from where I'm from and share the same kind of ideas, but it forces me to think about things in a different way.
And that is some of the greatest learning, like outside of all the degrees that I've had that have challenged the way that I've approached my life. And so I encourage other people to do that as well.
Kelli Thompson: You and I are the same. All I have to say is like mic drop. Exactly. Same. Amen.
Naseema: Thank you. Thank you. So now you're out of the HR space. You're an executive coach for people and talk to me about your typical clientele. And then I want to know what are some of the biggest challenges that you've seen? Because I know you work with women, the hangups that they have as far as, advancing.
Kelli Thompson: Yeah, absolutely. So my typical client is usually a woman in the workplace, corporate. I don't work with entrepreneurs. There's other coaches for that. Who is accelerating her career. So a few things, usually three things are happening. One, she's just gotten a big promotion and she's [00:20:00] inside a brand new company.
And she just wants help and assistance with this onboarding process. And this is, where I actually work with a lot of companies too, because in that onboarding process, that first 120 days is so tender and so important to onboard talent correctly, especially when you're paying more than six figures for that talent, for that talent not to work as expensive.
So lots of times I'm working with new women leaders who have just gotten promoted. They're in a brand new organization and we're just working on onboarding confidence, like adjusting to the new culture, all those sorts of things, coaching and developing her team, building good support networks.
Another way that I often work with clients is as they're accelerating and advancing in the organization, right? So high potential, they're probably in the frequency of getting promoted. And therefore a lot of the things that we're talking about, not only as confidence and then the imposter feelings that come with that, but really changing her mindset from high achiever To strategic leader, because it is hard to drop that doer mindset of jumping in, giving all the advice, saving the day, and really learning how to take a step [00:21:00] back, coaching and developing her team and her employees.
And then I would say the third way I'm usually working with corporate women leaders is those that are in the C suite and this just comes with a whole new set of challenges and what they often find is that they are an only. They're the only woman they're, they could be the only woman and only person of color.
They're a double only, which we know through all of the research through psychological safety really can hinder their voice. They can, hold back, maybe not take as many risks. Plus, they just have other challenges to navigate. So lots of times they find themselves as an only.
And so I work with a lot of clients in the C suite who have found themselves as an only really building their confidence. I would say the biggest challenges. That I'm working on them with is number one, finding their unique and authentic leadership style and voice, because if they are coming in new to an organization or they're accelerating in their organization, they get a lot of peer pressure to show up as John, who was there before them.
Okay. He was so popular. He was so charismatic, right? They could even be following [00:22:00] another woman. And how do they really define and own those unique things that make them a unique leader? So they aren't walking around copying everyone else's style. And what I often say is lots of times too, it's like, we need to make sure that our ladder is leaning against the right wall.
So that way you're climbing the right ladder of success, making sure you're saying yes to the right roles and not, and then also leading in a way that feels good for you so that you don't look back and you're like, I'm miserable and resentful. I don't know how I got here. It's okay, no, we need to know what we stand for and climb the appropriate ladder.
I would say the other thing too that we're often really working on is what I call a, the pedestal problem, which is they tend to put other people on a pedestal. Because maybe they've been around longer, they got more letters behind their name. Maybe they make more, maybe they're a company legend. We all know who those people are.
And they put those people on a pedestal thinking that they know better than them. And so it causes them to withhold, to silence themselves, not trust their intuition, go along. And so really speaking up and using their voice. And then a unique thing happens too, is as women accelerate in the organization, what they find themselves doing is [00:23:00] they get asked to speak on panels.
They get asked to speak at industry conferences, or they get they present to the board. And so we're working on good. I spent my life as a corporate trainer. And a speaker. So we're working on good presentation skills. How do I make an impact in these rooms when I'm the 1 that's on stage? And so those are oftentimes really 3 common problems that we're working on along with.
All the other things that come in corporate, like, how do I deal with this guy who is annoying? How do I, seal this rift with this coworker? Her and I aren't seeing things the same. I don't like this new boss that's been put over me. I didn't get the promotion. Just all that sort of stuff,
Naseema: as someone who, so I have a master's in healthcare administration, so I started at that level and was typically an only in a lot of rooms and it's challenging because, and I was super young. So I came into the space in March. early twenties and I'm 40. So I, I look young now. So imagine how I looked in my twenties.
So I [00:24:00] just remember the feeling of not belonging, but also being under this microscope that was like so hard to navigate I knew I belong there because I probably worked harder than a lot of the people to actually be in those rooms, but that sense of not belonging. And then that sense of always feeling like, in a defensive position to prove that I belong in this room was so traumatizing to me that's why I became a nurse.
I just left that space because I did not want to deal with that. I knew internally, that wasn't going to be a healthy place for me. Do you. help people work through those kind of feelings. Does that come up a lot for you?
Kelli Thompson: the
time you used a word called proving.
And so one of the things I see quite frequently and I only know it because I felt it is I often talk with my clients and if you're listening, I want you to maybe notice the next time you're in a room and maybe you're outnumbered or maybe you're just new cause feeling new is all weird [00:25:00] and vulnerable
Naseema: Yeah.
Kelli Thompson: I want you to notice, are you sitting at that meeting table? Are you sharing your ideas from approving energy? Or from a more trusting and confident energy.
Naseema: Mm.
Kelli Thompson: And I want you to notice how that feels differently for you. Because lots of times what happens is, is Oh my gosh, I'm the only, and then there's this guy over here who's like making little comments about are you sure you can handle this?
Who's watching your kids? And you're like, Oh
Naseema: Oh my god.
Kelli Thompson: And and so then like, all of a sudden then you're hyping yourself up even more and then you're like, okay, I got to prove to them that I'm already worthy and for women. And I honestly believe this, I think for women of color, and I know there's research who shows this and you said it is that.
They almost have to double prove themselves. It's like they the standards for perfection and excellence, they believe that they have to adhere to puts even more of that pressure and that energy in that room. And that's just, a cultural thing that everyone else needs to do better at recognizing, because it's not your job to be fighting against that standard.
And so what I'm often telling women and my clients, it's just notice your energy. [00:26:00] What happens when you're improving energy? And I want you to think about this. Okay. It's I oversell, I over tell, I over prepare, I over, whatever. And I'm like, okay have you ever been on the other end of proving energy?
And they're like, yeah. I'm like how does that feel? And they're like weird and gross and, and all these sorts of things. So I'm like, all right what would be different for you if you just went to your next meeting with just more of a confident, trusting energy? That you're just supposed to be there and that your ideas matter.
What would be different for you? Lots of times they say things like I would just be more relaxed. I wouldn't try to shove my ideas down their throat. I wouldn't try to feel all the talk time with just unnecessary banter. I would just share my ideas and be curious and thoughtful and ask for engagement.
And we can't always change the environments that we're in. I wish we could. But what I really encourage folks to do and what I've had to do as a leader too, is one notice the energy that I'm in and I am approving energy or a more confident, trusting energy, which one feels better. And number two, it's really important to find allies and supporters in that room.
And so what I've encouraged my clients to do most recently is [00:27:00] if you have someone in that room who you feel is a good mentor, a good advocate and a good ally, go to that person and just say, Hey, you know what, I've noticed some dynamics that every time I talk. John speaks over me. Are you willing to be in the room and call that out and say, Hey, John, I think Kelly was looking to finish her sentence.
And I've seen that work beautifully as well, where we encourage other folks to start to notice these behaviors as well so that they can also be, an advocate and an active participant in changing some of these dynamics in the room. It is not your job to do this all yourself.
Naseema: Thank you for that. Like those are those that I wish I had when I was in these spaces because it wasn't a lot of people that I felt could relate to what I was going through or that I could talk to that because I couldn't necessarily put words. I couldn't articulate the feelings. Especially like I said, I was young.
It was my first time being in this space and I was at such a high level. Like I did not know. What to expect and how it's supposed to be perceived because I'm used to being exhalated,
Kelli Thompson: Yeah.
Naseema: For lack of [00:28:00] better words, top of the class and all of those kind of things and to be thrust into the space where.
You feel inferior. It's, it's definitely challenging to navigate. But now as someone or as a lot of women are faced with being in these positions, but also being moms and wife and all of those things, how do you help them navigate the external pressures and talk and the internal guilt of being on this high level and being such high achieving, but then also wanting to be like the best mom.
Kelli Thompson: Yeah. So my daughter is an adult now, so she's going to be 19 here shortly. So I have the gift of looking back across all of those years that she was younger. And I have maybe a different perspective than folks who were in like the diapers and the formula, like all that sort of stuff.
But what I can tell folks is, number one is this, it is so important to have a good partner. [00:29:00] And to allow your partner to do things. I did not have, when my daughter was young, the benefit of a helpful partner I do now I'm remarried and he is like top
notch, but I also have to allow him to do things in his own way.
And that's what my friends who are moms, we talked about this quite a bit. Cause I, given my age, I had my daughter very young. I have a lot of friends whose kids are very young and they're like, we have to be comfortable with allowing our spouses or our partners to do things. To do things in their own way without us running in, jumping in, saving, correcting.
That's not how you do it. That's not how you put the diaper on. That's not, right? Because if you jump in and you're constantly intervening, they're going to throw their hands up and say, you know what? No, like you just do it then. So number one, I think it's really important to have a good partnership and allow your, ask, tell your partner what you need.
Talk about your household duties. Eve Rodsky has some great books and great resources on fair play and sharing of household work, but then just allow them to parent in their own way. Let them figure it out. You figured it out too. The other thing too that I would really encourage, I want to give folks [00:30:00] three things.
So one, work with your partner. Number two be very conscious about being okay setting boundaries at work. And so what are your non negotiables? Is your non negotiable that you're done at 5 p. m. every day? You don't need to accept that meeting at 5 30. If you can go back to folks and say, Hey, so I sent you sent through a meeting at 5 30.
What does tomorrow at 9 30 look like for you now? What I have a lot of clients in global environments. So I recognize. That when you work with folks in Tokyo or you're in New York and they're in California, you've got some stuff, but what I've seen my clients do successfully is trade those hours.
Okay, if we're doing a late meeting this week to accommodate your time zone, we're going to do a very early meeting next time, to accommodate my time zone. And so you're doing those sort of trade offs I've seen has worked well. But the other thing too, that I really encourage folks to do at work is to really consider what can you dump?
What can you delegate and what can you outsource? I actually have a whole chapter on this in my book. But what sort of things are you doing? Because you had to do them during COVID and you're like, is anybody even reading this [00:31:00] report? Do I even need to do this? like just dump it, dump it.
That crap happened to me all the time. What meetings did I get invited to once? And now I'm still coming. The next thing is what can you delegate? So as a leader, it's going to become more important for you to delegate low stakes activities and trust and coach people and yes, they will make mistakes to take on these sort of things so that you can free up your time and energy so that you weren't working all evening and you weren't working all weekend.
And the last thing is, what can you outsource? Y'all, AI chat GPT is like transformational. I never, ever, ever. Want to hear another woman being asked, can you take the meeting notes? I'm like, no, but chat GPT can like, there's all these sorts of AI plugins that can take the meeting notes. Don't ever pay anybody to take meeting notes
Naseema: ever again.
Kelli Thompson: ever again.
So work with your partner, do things that you can do. But if you are leading an organization, I want you to also think about the type of workload that you are delegating. So for instance, I I talked about this a little bit in the book, but when I lead training for organizations, I have everybody played what I call unpaid workload bingo [00:32:00] and on the bingo card.
It has things like, I'm the only person that can change the printer cartridge. I picked up the coffee and the lunches. I planned the baby shower. I planned, like I led this non strategic committee about, where some, new water cooler is going to be like notice as a leader who you are delegating work to.
Are you giving men all the good strategic projects that have to do with innovation, client relationships, those sorts of things. And you're giving the women, the baby shower planning. Like lots of times women are called unstrategic. We're giving them a lot of unstrategic work. So that's what organizations can do is just to notice the type of work that they're delegating and how can we share this sort of load and making sure everybody's getting a good blend of strategic work and I get it.
there's just stuff you got to do at work, but let's make sure it's not all the women doing it.
Naseema: I love that. I love that. And I wanted to bring it back to like salary negotiation and, we just came off of this time period where I feel like for the first time, like I saw publicly women demanding very strong [00:33:00] compensation packages and knowing how to or being willing to learn, but actually being paid fairly.
And then A whole bunch of layoffs start to happen, right? Recently. For somebody who finally felt like they got into that groove and where it was at a place where they were, making, they, they made it and now they're in a place where they're at a low and may feel like they're starting over.
What tips do you have for them to get back in the workforce and to get back to the place that where they were at or above.
Kelli Thompson: Yeah. One thing that I would really encourage if you were a client sitting in front of me, is I would double check the story that you're telling yourself that because you advocated for your raise, that is the reason why you were laid off. We don't know that for sure.
Okay. So let's just. Let's just separate story from fact.
Like I know it's so hard, but it's just so helpful because it just helps us put us into a different mindset when we're going to negotiate. So there's a couple of things I've seen my clients do. Number one, [00:34:00] sometimes if they're in this situation, they will hold out for a role.
That is one that they love and pays them fairly. I've had other clients do bridge jobs. They're like, this job is not the salary that I want, but I like it. The company's good. The culture is good. It's going to bridge me and help me learn some skills that are going to move me closer. To the type of leader I want to be or the type of career I want it to become.
So there's not a right answer here. You have to figure out what is important to you. What do you value? What's your savings account? We're talking about financially intentional, there's, this is not just salary, like being financially intentional. I say, I talk about it in my book.
There's five salary conversations. It is your savings. It is your salary. It is the systems that you're going into, compensation systems. It is asking for support, and now there's a fifth one that I'm blanking on that you might have to get my book to read the fifth one.
Naseema: Get the book.
Kelli Thompson: Get the book, but there's a fifth, there's a fifth one too.
And these are all things you have to take in consideration. Some people have the luxury of a dual income household or a savings account that allows them [00:35:00] to hold off and wait for that next big role or job offer, and some don't. So they take a bridge role and that's okay too. Like you have to decide what's important to you so that you put yourself in a good financial position to support yourself, your family, and your future.
Naseema: I love that. I love that. And I love the term, the bridge role because a lot of times people feel like it's taking a step back and that can do a number on your self esteem. But I like to share the story of when I was transitioning into nursing, I went from being a healthcare administrator to I had to fully quit.
And I went back to school to get some more patient care skills. And I ended up randomly in like a job to be like the secretary to the chief nursing officer. And I was thrilled to do that job. I knew it was temporary, so that was number one, but I know if I would have told a lot of my colleagues from before what I was doing, there was like, What are you doing like in that role?[00:36:00]
But being in that role taught me so much. And I use that experience even to this day that what people might look like as a, like a setback. To me was one of the best experiences of my life. And so I always tell people, don't be afraid of the not so glamorous, not where you think you should be roles, but take that opportunity in those roles to build on yourself and to use it as a stepping stone to where you want to be.
So I love that. I love that. I didn't have that terminology, but I'm going to use it now.
Kelli Thompson: My first bridge role was I went into work for a bank when I longer story, I was living in St. Louis, moved back to Omaha, got a job at a bank in like the wealth advisory department. And it did not work out. They didn't know what to do with me. They're like, here, go be in sales and to see if you like it.
It was literally a bridge role because I was panicking. I'm like, I got to pay my bills. And I'm like, okay, I guess I need money. And they're going to go they don't want me in this [00:37:00] department. It was like a kind way of saying you're not working out here, but go try that over there. I could have said no, but I was like, no, I'll take it.
It was the worst job ever. I had to make 80 phone calls a day selling credit card processing. And, but that bridge job taught me so much about sales, about not taking rejection personally. There is no way I could be an entrepreneur. Had I not spent two years, I spent two years
like getting told no and getting hung up on the phone, cause the money ended up being okay, cause you're in sales, but like just the skills, the sales skills I learned, I'm like, Oh my gosh, thank God.
Because now as an entrepreneur like for those, you say entrepreneurship, that's what you should go do. If you don't want to sell, don't be an entrepreneur because entrepreneurship is sales and disguise
Naseema: that part, but, I also heard that if there's any 1 skill, you should learn, it's going to be sales. If you can learn sales, like you said, the rejection, the, the consistency, like, all of the things that go into sales is going to be key for
Kelli Thompson: Oh, let's be clear. Even nurses are in sales. You know why? [00:38:00] Because you have to tell people to stop smoking, start taking better care of themselves, drink more water. Let's be honest. Okay. So I know you're labor and delivery. Let's talk about myself and all the other mamas who came in with their birth plan.
That was going to be so perfect and so laid out. And now you as a nurse have to sell to me. What? Why I should abandon the birth plan if we're going to go do a C section. Being a nurse is all about
Naseema: Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. How do people like work with you? Who are your ideal clients? Or how do people bring you to their corporations? So you can break them down to
build back
Kelli Thompson: So if you're a woman in corporate looking to accelerate your career, you might be an ideal candidate for one on one executive coaching, and I'd love to talk to you, you can go to my website at kellyraythompson. com. I'm Kelly with an I R A E. You can also follow me on LinkedIn and Instagram. I also do corporate training for women leaders inside organizations.
And you can also go to my website. And then I do have some programs that I run to the public. And those are every spring and every fall. So if you go to my website, you're going to find a lot of [00:39:00] things, or if you connect with me on social, I always love to hear from folks there
Naseema: And where can people get your book?
Kelli Thompson: Anywhere books are sold. I think everybody's favorite is Amazon. Everybody loves Audible these days. So I read my own book. And so if you're an Audible listener, you can download that copy, but anywhere you buy your books, you can find mine.
Naseema: I'm definitely an audio girl. It's just my ADHD. I have to listen to everything on 2x. So that's me. That speaks to me. So next book there. Thank you so much, Kelly. You're just a joy and I've learned so much from you. And I know my audience will learn so much and hopefully they'll reach out to you because we need more people in the world like you and I definitely appreciate what you're doing.
Kelli Thompson: Oh, thank you. And likewise.
Naseema: Yay!
Hey there I’m Naseema
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