This Nurse Retired at 40- Ep. 2
Lynn Frair is a Nurse turned Money Coach who began investing at the age of 12. Despite her diligence in saving early on, she was diagnosed with a brain tumor which was difficult but changed her life. It wiped out all their savings and they had to rebuild from a net worth of zero in 2009. Hanging on to her investments in 2008/9 when everyone else was bailing, she was able to accumulate enough money in her investments to comfortably retire at the age of 40.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Naseema McElroy: 00:02:45 So, today I have the honor of interviewing Lynn Frair of nursenumbers.com and I could not be happier to have her joining me here because I think in my head that we are the same people. [laughs].
Lynn Frair: 00:03:40 Yes we are. We are slightly the same. Yeah.
Naseema McElroy: 00:03:44 And I first heard Lynn on Choose FI, I was like, where has she been all my life? She's probably going to think I'm creepy, but I need her in my life because we are too much alike. So, I'm gonna let you guys be the judge of that. But, I'm super honored to have you here land and I'm going to give you the opportunity to just do a quick introduction of who you are and what you're doing right now.
Lynn Frair: 00:04:18 Thanks, Naseema. Yeah, we are, slightly, we must be, I don't know, genetically similar in some ways because there are so many similarities with your, leadership background and nursing background and thinking you were going to be pre-med and having two daughters and our daughters are even named similarly. So, it's just wonderful to hear other nurses in the FI, financial independence space. We are a bright group of people and I love that we're coming together to empower other people. Basically what I'm doing right now as I left traditional employment in January. I was a nurse and I told my employer that I was going to be taking a mini retirement. I'd been investing since I was 12. [Naseema says "wow!"] Yes. Yep. Like you do. And that I was going to take some months or years off or maybe, I don't know forever. I didn't know. But what I did know is I had some financial room to kind of decide what I was going to do next. So, I left in January of 2019 and naturally, people said, well, wait a minute, is your husband going to work or are you, how's this going to work? And I said, no, we're going to take time and travel be with our girls. And so I got a lot of questions and a lot of curiosity. And so I started a website for resources for folks and free resources and then I heard from many people that they really wanted one on one time with me to help them with their situations. So, I then started a financial coaching model where from my website I do one on one coaching and it has been, honestly, it's been a blast. It's a bit of a dream come true. So that is what we're doing. I'm working with folks and spending time with my kids and traveling. It's a lot of fun.
Naseema McElroy: 00:06:16 Awesome, Lynn. So on the Nurses on Fire Podcast, we like to do what we call in the nursing world world S bar. And, as far as kind of a way where we can give, in an urgent situation or just in giving report, we can give a big picture of what's going on with someone really fast. So, you did a really good job explaining a lot of your situation and a little bit of your background, but we're gonna just do it like rapid fire style. So Lynn, tell me what the situation is with you. Where are you currently right now?
Naseema McElroy: 00:06:16 Awesome, Lynn. So on the Nurses on Fire Podcast, we like to do what we call in the nursing world world S bar. And, as far as kind of a way where we can give, in an urgent situation or just in giving report, we can give a big picture of what's going on with someone really fast. So, you did a really good job explaining a lot of your situation and a little bit of your background, but we're gonna just do it like rapid fire style. So Lynn, tell me what the situation is with you. Where are you currently right now?
Lynn Frair: 00:06:53 So situation. I live in Bothell, Washington, just north of Seattle. I left work and January, left traditional work. I still work. I'm a mom and I do a lot of fun, right? Two little girls, my husband who is a chef and we live a great life of travel and working with folks and basically fulfilling our passion. So, that's where we are now.
Naseema McElroy: 00:07:22 So I know you started in investing at 12, but what was really your turning point where you're just like, I don't necessarily want to have to work for the rest of my life?
Lynn Frair: 00:07:34 Yeah, Naseema. So, I was investing pretty young. We were doing quite well. And then I became a new nurse and went right into the ICU. And after a while there I realized I found out that I actually had a brain tumor so I had that removed. And then, when about I had to kind of learn how to walk again, basically. I'd really bad balance after that. So...
Naseema McElroy: 00:08:00 No, no, no, no big thing. No big deal. You just had kind of walked again.
Lynn Frair: 00:08:05 Like you do. Well, my strength was still good. I told you I have a little bit sometimes of an optimist in a ridiculous way, but II was just really, it was like walking on a rocky ship all the time, so I couldn't really tell where my feet were in space. So I had to, you know, do occupational therapy. I'd lost my balance, basically, my hearing and my balance in my left ear. So after I recovered from that, went back into the ICU as a nurse and you know, I was released to do so. Bbut the, the longer shifts, it just was a bit harder for me to do. It just wasn't the right match in that time. So I went into an, and also all that good investing we had done, it was all wiped out financially. So we were back down to zero, net worth of zero again. And so I went into home health care and then eventually hospice, which I absolutely love. And hospice looks at the care of the entire person, their whole body, their whole, their systems, their quality of life, their family. It's everything that I love. Quality of life.
Naseema McElroy: 00:09:16 Well that's actually, that's the nursing model. But then we get put under, you know, this medical model, so we kind of lose a little bit of that. So when you went back into that, I can imagine it was just like, ah, like, okay, this is it. This is it, what I was supposed to be doing.
Lynn Frair: 00:09:35 I absolutely think that theoretically, our model would be looking at every aspect of the integration of the human body and the integration of the family and the home environment. We're just limited by time and insurance constraints. And in hospice, I felt like we had a little bit better than, than usual ability to look at the broader picture for folks. So, I was very drawn to it. I did not expect to be, I was an ICU nurse, you know, so I really didn't expect to be, but I ended up loving it and was in hosp, I think the combination of my own brain tumor and also seeing people at end of life. I know this sounds kind of dire, but honestly it was the most enlightening, beautiful experience to be able to meet with people and their families and to get really clear about what do I value and how do I value my time. And, I realized that, that I really value my time tremendously and that whatever decision that I make affects how much time I have. And if I choose to buy things that have a repeated expense, it kind of messes with my time freedom. And I didn't, I honestly didn't like that. So, it was motivating the my own physical issues and then also seeing people repeatedly who had just retired and now they've, they're at end of life and I thought, you know, I just don't want that. So that's what motivated me. Combination.
Naseema McElroy: 00:11:06 So what tools did you put into place? Well, your savings had gotten wiped out from when you were 12 and then you had to start over. What tools allowed you to build back up from that place? From nothing and from struggling health wise?
Lynn Frair: 00:11:27 Yeah. You know, I think that what I looked at... Often when you're in a very dire situation, there's a couple of different roads you can take and often they can be quite the opposite. So for example, when, when I was recovering from the brain tumor, that was also the time where the stock market was doing very, very, very poorly. So you would think everything is culminating in this horrible spot for me. But the thing is when stock market really starts declining, your purchasing power really increases. And I, I was in it for the long game and a lot of folks around me were very worried and honestly, I was worried about what was going to happen with myself physically. But I did know that I was still in my twenties. I had time on my side. I know the numbers around how quickly markets tend to recover after a crash. And, I decided to pay off debt. I hate debt 'cause again, it messes with my freedom. And I don't want things messing with my fruit, my time, freedom. And then the, so the combination of sort of recovering and basically putting everything into the, a lot of things into the stock market and allowing enough time that those tools of sort of looking at the longer game were immensely helpful especially when people around me are acting sort of emotionally about what's going to happen and, and what is happening in the short term to kind of pull back and look at what do I want in the next five years or 10 years rather than what do I want right now. Very, very helpful.
Naseema McElroy: 00:13:11 So, basically Lynn, like you're psychic, super smart and analytical because you timed that like nobody's business. And I know you did not purposely timed the market, but your timing was impeccable. And you know, a lot of us had that opportunity. Not saying that like, you're super lucky we all had that opportunity, but what you had and what I respected and what I wish I had more of was the ability to step back and see the end game, the long game. And also, to be able to put the numbers behind it to back it up. Like, because like, usually when I do that, I get into like this super woo woo kind of like world where numbers don't fit. And like I'm trying to manifest things and I'm just like, I just, I, you know, so those two things don't merge very well with me. And I'm not great with numbers. I'm a nurse, too. But like that, that's super challenging for me. But I really think that that's your super power.
Lynn Frair: 00:14:13 Oh, well thank you. It's nice to know that I have a superpower, you could tell my husband. But I think that there's a few things that I do when markets start. So you asked for this assessment portion about tools. There's a few things that I mentally do. So I studied behavioral economics for fun like you do. I study what do people do when they're faced with financial situations. How do they behave and how does that help them or hurt them? And so some of the things that I personally do is, so the stock market is taking a big crash down, let's say, what are people's instinct? Oh, I need to get out. I need to panic. Everybody else is getting out. I need to get out before it goes even lower. All those things. Well, so I go back to the data. So the data says that on average if we're looking at the US stock market, it goes up more days than it goes down. So I think, hmm, tomorrow it is slightly like more likely that it'll go up versus going down. I also look at often markets recover, the US market or the S&P 500, or if you look at the broader market, they often recover within two years and almost always within for. So then I think, gosh, can I hold out for two years or four years? And if not, maybe I have too much in stocks. And that's something I should have probably looked at, you know, before that point. And then I also ask myself, am I acting emotionally. Emotionally does not help us in investing. It hurts us. And the other thing I do is think of this study. So Fidelity, you know, I haven't been able to find the actual study and I probably should, but I have heard that Fidelity did a study of the investors that have the best outcomes over time. And the legend is that the people who had the best outcomes, number one were dead people. And then number two were people who forgot they had accounts. Sort of highlighting the point that if you have a wise investing strategy and then you kind of let the market do its work, stay out of it, resist the temptation to have those emotional responses that you will do better over time than those who try to time things and pull things out because of emotional reasons. And so, I kind of go through this mental model of tools that I have when the market starts getting a little bit, I call it jiggly because it makes me laugh a little bit and takes the seriousness out of it because you just want to zoom out a little bit, not get so tied up into the fine movements. So those are some of my mental tools.
Naseema McElroy: 00:17:08 I love it, Lynn. And, for somebody who studies behavioral economics like what? I mean, but the thing is that you don't have to even understand it at that level. Just understand, take your feelings out of it, keep on doing things repetitively. And just don't get caught up in the hype of what's going on out there in the news and in the market and just stay steadfast. It doesn't even have to be a lot of money. Just keep on doing the things repetitively. Yeah. And you can set yourself up for a good future. Yeah, I think that's awesome. So I know you're out here living your best life right now, Lynn. But outside of, I mean you've already hit your FI number, you've already hit your financial independence goal, but ultimately, what is like your ultimate outcome like that you want to get from your platform or from the work that you're doing. Like what do you want to see in your life? And, how do you want to impact others?
Lynn Frair: 00:18:26 That, Naseema, is such a good question. I was talking to you earlier today, you know, my initial goals when I retired was to sleep in every day and to watch Netflix. And I failed on my goals. I know, I, you know, honestly that kept me motivated too. Okay. I'll be able to sleep in and I'm going watch game of Thrones, which I hear about all the time, but I've never seen and all these things that I've not done. So those are some of my goals. And I, I actually haven't, I think I might've slept in one day but my body's used to waking up early. So what I'm learning is that this retirement or whatever you wanna call it, time away from traditional work or sabbatical or... It is changing all the time. And, the beauty of it is you can just kind of go with your bliss. And so that's what I'm doing is I love working with people on making their life better. And I have this kind of crazy nursing meets finance optimization brain. And so it seems to make sense to put it to some good use and yeah. And, there seems to be value in that people are finding a lot of value in that. So at first I was giving it all away. I was meeting with people one on one for free and then the demand was so much, and then it was a full time job that I decided to put some limits on it. It's not a very scalable model, so I may have to change it at some point, but what I would honestly, you see, Naseema, you see the future already. You probably know exactly what's going to happen. But I don't. And I just, I love talking with people. I love speaking about how to improve people's quality of life. I mean, we've got limited time here on this earth. A lot of people want to spend more time with their family. They want to spend more time taking care of their health. And so, I love helping people find those different avenues and paths where they can live the life that they want to. And I think that is honestly, like one of the reasons I get up every day is to kiss my pumpkins and have waffles with them in the morning, which we do every morning. And then I go up to my office sometimes and I get to work with folks on designing their life. And then, other days I'm off traveling or something with the kiddos, I'm taking them to the library for a field trip. And I just want that for other people, honestly.
Naseema McElroy: 00:21:02 I think that that's amazing and I think that if you always have a goal to give, you will always be successful in life. So no matter what you do, you're setting yourself up for success because it's all about service and it's all about what you're doing for other people. And people need you. We need you. I need you, girl.
Lynn Frair: 00:21:25 Yeah. we got to do something. There's so much opportunity for folks to live lives that they, that are incrementally better. I mean, they don't have to wait to the point where they're financially independent to start living these incrementally better lives now. Whether doing these little tweaks that help their health or their finances and often they're related in fact, which is the beautiful thing is that by taking care of some of these things, the life starts just sort of beautifully unfolding over time in a way that compounds over time to be really quite remarkable. And a lot of folks won't be able to envision, you know, retiring really, really young or even, some folks even on time. But almost everybody, in fact, everybody that I've met has a way and a path to make their life incrementally better. Once they get clear on what it is they want and we'll kind of start looking at what they're doing that doesn't really add value to their life or to the life of those around them and start doing tweaks that way. That's really, really powerful.
Naseema McElroy: 00:22:37 You've covered so much of your story in that. I'm just like, oh my God, I don't even know the question is, but I think it would be a disservice if I didn't dive more into your story because I feel like I'm kind of at a, what is it called? I have the advantage of knowing kind of your background all some together and and you summarize that and everything that you said, but I want to give people like kind of more of a linear picture of what was going on in your life. So, you started... well, let's start from the beginning. So, you, like me were raised by a single dad?
Lynn Frair: 00:25:22 So my, I was raised, my mom was sick a lot of the times when I was growing up. And so, I was raised primarily by my dad and my parents are absolutely wonderful. I feel very, very grateful for that. But I did know at a pretty early age, I suspected that I would be responsible for going to college financially. I suspected that and so, and I very much wanted to go to college. So, I started a babysitting business around the age of 12. And I was very...
Naseema McElroy: 00:25:56 Okay. Yeah. Hold on, let's stop. Let's stop because, okay. So, this is where I'm talking about, me and Lynn are the same people. So, I was raised by my dad. My mom was sick, but more like mentally ill. So like, so my dad raised me, [Lynn says "that was my mom too, and it was mental illness."] Okay. Yeah.
Lynn Frair: 00:26:20 Bless her heart. And she's a lovely human. But yes. That's what was what was predominantly what was going on.
Naseema McElroy: 00:26:28 Yes. Yeah, we'll talk about that. Also babysitting was my thing. Yeah. Like that was my thing. Like I was always like, I'm always, I was the oldest from my dad and so always babysit my siblings. And so that just automatically went into me babysitting other kids. So like I'm telling you when I hear her story, I'm just like we're the same people.
Lynn Frair: 00:26:57 No, that is really, really funny. I didn't even know that part about our similarities. But yeah, I started a babysitting business and I became really popular because while I was babysitting I would also clean their house. And so they came back to happy kids. And their house is cleaner than the way they left it. So I was providing tremendous value. I'm like, oh I need one of those in my life. I need like a mini version of me.
Naseema McElroy: 00:27:23 Girl, you are, you created like your own little market, niche. Like you had it on like, like there was no other babysitter out there like you.
Lynn Frair: 00:27:33 So, I had a good flow of clients. I didn't call them clients, you know, as a kid. But I had, I always was in demand and so I had to start outsourcing to my other friends. And so, because I just couldn't keep up with the volume. And so, and that was kind of cool cause I get to pick my favorite clients, you know, or my favorite parents and any, so anyway, I worked a lot and I often was able to, even with babysitting and cleaning the house, I was often able also to get some homework done. So, it worked out in a lot of different ways. And, and so suspecting that I'd be on the hook for figuring out about the future of college and financing that I started investing and I, what happened was I took a bus to a woman in business conference and because, you know, I wasn't driving and it wasn't called girls in businesses. It was Women in Business. And I thought, okay, I gotta see what they're doing. So I went there and I asked...
Naseema McElroy: 00:28:38 And, how old were you at this time?
Lynn Frair: 00:28:39 You know, I was really young and I was way before I was driving, so I was probably somewhere around starting the like 12, 13, maybe 14. It was well before I was driving. No, I think I was 12. I think it was right around that because I started going, okay, and how can I efficiently use this money for my future? So it, I don't know exactly the chronology, but very, very close to that 12 year old range. So I went to the conference, Women in Business Conference and I said, you know, I'm Lynn, I've got age on my side and you know, I'm however old I was, I think it was 12. And I'd like to know what you would do if you were my age. And so, I remember I had a note pad and I wrote down everything they told me and they told me start investing in the stock market. Buy property young. And so, I wrote that down in the notepad and I walked down to the local bank and I said, I'd like to start investing my babysitting money. And they told me to go back and get my parents because I was under age. And so I did. And I don't think my dad really understood what I was asking for. What in the world I was up to, I was always up to a little different little things that I would try. So...
Naseema McElroy: 00:30:04 Let me ask you, because at 12 years old, like I legit was making a lot of money at 12 years old. But my money was more about survival, um, because I had to help out in my household. I wanted to know what made you think like investing. Did you have anybody that you knew that were, that invested? Did you have any role models and people in your family that invested? Like how did you know to do that? 'Cause I didn't, I didn't know what investing was.
Lynn Frair: 00:30:35 Yeah. Well, gosh, I, you know, I've asked myself that question a lot. I remember really young reading about the power of compound interest and I thought, well shoot, I've got this on my side now. We better get going. Um, and I remember thinking about I need to wear sunblock really young because I didn't want to get wrinkles when I'm older. I mean, I seriously was eight or nine when I was having these thoughts. And I remember my mom saying, telling me, oh, I'll tell you this when you're older with various things. And I would write them down and I held her to it. When I got older, I'd be like, okay, well I'm older now, will you answer these questions? And you know, this is before the Internet. So I could just look up in encyclopedia Britannica, you know, if I heard a word that was questionable, you know, it was different back then. But I just remember always kind of considering the future. And I, and you know, I'm sure I got that from a lot of different sources that I just compiled. I don't know exactly. I do remember when I went to the bank, which was Washington Mutual at the time, they gave a passport savings book and they were charging me $5.95 a month. And I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I make two bucks an hour, this $5.95 a month. That's six. You know, and I negotiated them so that they would waive it because that was ridiculous for me. [Naseema says "oh my God, what a powerhouse at 12 years old."] You think so? But I wasn't, I never raised my rates. I think a lot of it has always been also about service, too. I mean, I think that may be why I went into nursing, but, on the business side of things, I'm not always all optima. But what I do with what I have has been always, I've always wanted to optimize that and that's powerful over time. So, yeah. I don't know if I can answer like where I got that from or who. Yeah, I don't know. I'm sure there's important and impactful people along my... I've just met a lot of...
Naseema McElroy: 00:32:58 But for the simple fact that that was the book, that you picked up a book and you were able to act on that at that age is incredible. And I think, yeah, it speaks a lot to, like I said, like how much foresight you have and have always had. That is definitely a super power. Like it's amazing and it's served you and I also wanted to know, like what you said is that you didn't raise your rate. Like you didn't optimize every single area in your life, but you did certain things and you did those things right. And it's not everything that has to be optimal. And I think that's what people think is that you have to get everything right. It's not about getting everything right. If you just get one thing right, you're going to be so much farther ahead than most people. So just do that.
Lynn Frair: 00:33:47 And I think the beautiful thing was too, was that these families, I loved them and they loved me. They would raise my rates for me. They saw the value. They wanted me to choose them instead of the other families that all wanted me to come and watch your kids and clean their house at the same time. So the market, by providing something of great value, the market helps set your rate in a way. And that happens for, for all of us, you know, for any entrepreneur. The market will help you set your rate.
Naseema McElroy: 00:34:22 That is true. So, after babysitting, I went to doing hair because being raised by my dad, he didn't know how to do our hair and you know, as a little black girl, hair is pretty important and it's a major undertaking. So at five years old, I learned how to braid and that skill, you know, transfer very well in college, too, when I needed to buy a car. So I braided and like, because of the industry, like the hair industry, just people who do hair, aren't usually that reliable. Okay, I'm making a big generalization, but just showing up and doing a good job and just doing what I'm supposed to do, I got so many referrals. Like I was that person that everybody knew was going to braid their hair. Like, I remember one summer going to like this summer kind of festival thing and like 90% of the people there I had done hair. Yeah. And that's how I bought my car. Yeah. It just, yeah, I just like agree that's what the market demands. In that braiding actually, I braided hair all the way through after I got my master's degree. I actually did not stop braiding hair until I went back for my second masters degree. So like that carried me through. I've never had to market myself. Everything's been word of mouth. But yeah, I think that it speaks volume when you just show up to provide a service and you're actually just providing that service and doing it well, the market is going to reward.
Lynn Frair: 00:36:03 Yeah. That's what I've seen. I mean, I think that when I was, when I was little, I was just going through a lot of, one of the things I've been doing while I quote retired, but it's not really retirement 'cause I'm doing lots of things that are super fun but I've been going through all my paper copies of everything, all my photos to digitize them and, and I found an evaluation of when I was a kid and it said Lynn Marie, 99 percentile for math, which might not be surprising, but Lynn Marie needs to work on her persuasion skills, I was like...
Naseema McElroy: 00:36:37 Wait, so wait, is Marie your middle name? [Lynn says "Yeah. That's what they called me."] Okay. So we have the same middle name.
Lynn Frair: 00:36:46 So yeah, they gave me the feedback and multiple years, Lynnneeds to work on persuasion and I don't particularly like persuading people whatsoever. I do like to, I don't, I mean I think people are smart enough to figure... So with anything, and when I was a hospice nurse, I would say, you know, this is what we provide. And it's not a fit for everybody. It's comfort oriented care. It's a benefit entitled to you, but this is not the right fit for everybody. If you want to pursue treatment measures, absolutely support you in that but that's not the service we provide and people can feel if you're kind of want to, if you're a salesperson, at least for me, that's always been the case. I, I tried to sell mascara when I was working at Walgreens once and it was disingenuous. Then I thought, okay, I just, I can't do it. I can't. But if you're honest, like here's what I do, here's what I don't do, here's what I'm good at. Here's, you know, if you want this other thing, you might want to go to this other person and you do that over time. People seem to, they're attracted to that and then you don't have to be persuasive 'cause I, I certainly don't enjoy that at all. I mean, people can tell... Like that I got like the lady I tried to sell Mascara to. I still remember that. And I'm like, yeah, see, that's why I don't do that. I can't sell anything. But if I'm honest about, here's what I do and this is what I love, then people come to me rather than trying to sell it, because then I also tell him, you know, here's what I'm not good at. I'm not good at cooking. Oh my gosh. That's why I married a chef. I am not good at cooking at all. I'm not a particularly... What else? Lots of, I have lots of downsides, but one of my, but my upside is that I seem to have this financial optimizing brain that loves to find inefficiencies and that is a way that helps a lot of people and can help them with their lives.
Naseema McElroy: 00:38:59 Definitely. Okay. So I love your story on how you went to the director of the ICU department and you know, and this is something I know, but most people who aren't nurses don't know that you don't just land an ICU dayshift job easily. Can you talk to how you landed that day shift ICU job? And then I have another story kind of similar to yours.
Lynn Frair: 00:39:37 Yeah, I would love to hear, it's so funny. The coincidence is so, yeah. You know, I think one of these, Naseema, one of my maybe good sides or downsides, is that I'm just very optimistic that I believe I can do what I set my mind to, you know, and I thought, gosh, I want to work in the ICU, so how am I gonna figure out how to do that? So I knew, I think my teachers knew of the ICU director and so I went to her and I was very interested in working in the ICU and I went to her, I think it was a full, actually, year and a half. At first it was, I said a year, but I think it was actually a year and a half before I was going to graduate. And I said that I would like to be an ICU nurse upon graduation and, and whatever she would say would make me eligible to do or would increase my eligibility, I would be happy to do it. And so she told me all the things I should do and I did them and a few months later, I can't remember the exact chronology 'cause it's been a while, but they hired me as a nurse tech. And so that's like, yeah. So a lot of folks in nursing know this. It's kind of like you're not quite a nurse yet. You don't have your RN license, you are presuming to be, you've kind of work at the function of a CNA and I think they are also previewing you, you know, is this going to be a good fit? Is this going to be a.. Will this workout? So I worked as a nurse tech in the ICU. I would, I think for about a before graduation. So all the while doing all these things that she recommended. I had great recommendations. My, my grades were good. [Naseema asks " What year did you come out of nursing school?"] 2006. Yeah. So I came out, I have nursing school in 2006. I became a tech for them in 2005 and you know, at some point along the way I came back to interview. There was a point where night shift was considered. I consider they had night shift positions. Most places often have night shift positions, certainly before they shift positions, particularly for new grads. So that was an option. I tested it. I had a really hard time adjusting to nights. I, my body just, it's hard for a lot of people. I had a really hard time to the point where I kind of worried about my safety and my patients' safety. And so, I was just honest and I said, gosh, I really want to work here. You have day shift and night shift. I know night shift pays a premium, but I really feel like it's in the best interest of everybody, patients all around. I would love to choose the day shift. So I think some of it's luck. Some of it was just honesty, some of it was hard work. But I think if you, it's very surprising if you just kind of say in it in a confident yet humble way, you know, I'd really love to do this thing in like a year and a half. You know, you're planning ahead, you're clear about your intention and I will do what you think makes sense in order to accomplish that. People are generally very receptive to that because you're showing that you're clearly able to do and willing to do the work and that you have follow up. And most people just don't think that far ahead. And so just by doing that, you know, so what was your story?
Naseema McElroy: 00:43:26 So, my story isn't exactly like that, but just kind of in that same realm of how I got my job. So, the reason why I asked you when you came out of nursing school is because I came out of nursing school in 2009, so that was the recession and I think it was similar in Seattle, but they weren't hiring new nurses. But the one thing that I had to, my advantage is, so, I was in a class of 83 people. I went to UCF, so I did an accelerated nursing program. So we had a large class and most of us are like second time career people. Anyway, so I know we spoke offline about how, I quit administration in 2007 and then I kind of just spent like a year kind of heads down. I'm doing my Prereqs. Well, when I was finishing up my prereqs, I actually got a call that my grandfather had been diagnosed with cancer. So, I had moved to Houston for a little while and so I decided to move back home to Oakland. I actually moved in with my grandfather and because me and my grandfather had a really close relationship and so, like I was living off of unemployment, doing my prereqs, but that was running out and it's more expensive. So I had, I was faced with getting a job and I knew I was to go to nursing school, so I wasn't like looking for a career job like in healthcare administration. So I did something that most people wouldn't do. And I took a job through a staffing agency as a secretary. Yeah, so I was a secretary at this county hospital, not too far from Oakland, was in a little city that I'd never been to, called Martinez. And I thought it was pretty cool. And so I ended up being the secretary to the nursing administration. So, I was working under people who I used to have those, you know, I was in those administrative roles, even though I wasn't a nurse. I was in those management roles and I never really told anybody, but I just went there every day and I just did my job and I felt like I did a really, really good job. But I mean, I knew what the purpose was. It was just serving, you know, short term financial purpose while I went back to school. But, you know, I showed up every day. All the nursing staff got to know me. They trusted me. They would give me little projects on the side and I'll always just knock them out the park. And I just showed up for them with no expectations, obviously. But it was just how I work. And so, I go through nursing school and then it's time to get jobs. And I remember, you know, UCSF has a medical center and I remember the chief nursing officer of UCSF talking to our class basically like, listen, this is like a very challenging time in nursing. We basically don't have jobs for you guys and good luck finding jobs other places. And, I was just like, wow. Like, so I just spent all this time in school, you know, quit my career and I'm not going to have a job.
Naseema McElroy: 00:46:59 And I didn't even, I didn't even put myself out there. One of the staffing people at the hospital that I worked with was like, your graduate, you graduated, right? And I was like, yeah. She was like, I'm going to tell the nurse managers in our staffing meeting this morning. And I was like, okay, I got an email from all the managers offering me positions in their department. No Way. So, I ended up going into perinatal care and then later labor and delivery because I was going into the family nurse practitioner program at UCSF. But I just, that those stories, even though they're not the same, it's just like about doing the things most people won't do to get into it. Most people would be like, really? You would do all of that? You don't even have a job. How do you know that doing after doing all that, she was going to even gave you a job and then I didn't even do that work to get the job. But people are watching you. People are looking and I think that goes back to what we were talking about earlier. Like if you do things out of service and just with integrity, then things are always going to shift for you. So, I ended up being like one of three of the 83 people in my class to graduate with a job in 2009 yeah.
Lynn Frair: 00:48:38 It really is remarkable. I just really believe you treat people decent. I'm not perfect all the time, of course, at all. But I do try to generally treat people well, decently, at a minimum, respectfully, regardless of position, and it's really amazing how sometimes you look at and you think, Gosh, you see people the way they treat servers or something and you think, is that necessary? How was that helpful for anybody? You know, it's just...
Naseema McElroy: 00:49:14 Right. And that's like the story that you told me about the housekeeper, right?
Lynn Frair: 00:49:18 Yeah. So for your audience, when I was a new ICU nurse, brand new ICU nurse and they hired me, there was a housekeeper. Environmental services is their division name. And, I remember her clearly and I remember a lot of folks clearly that I worked with and um, so, you know, she was great. She did a great job. There's lots of folks with various positions who did a great job and, and fast forward 10 years now, actually not even that long, I had left the ICU, had the brain tumor, I learned how to walk again, went to home care, went to hospice, got promoted to charge nurse, got promoted to manager for outpatient and then got promoted to manager of the entire inpatient facility, which was 55 people reporting to me directly and the total operations management of the building. And, nobody knew me. Their manager left quickly. Nobody talked about why, you know, certainly people had suspicions. My job was to help support the staff. That's how I saw it. So, you know, I certainly had guesses, but I really didn't know and nobody knew me. So here I am, I'm young, I'm 34, which was younger, certainly than many of the staff members. And so I walk in there as an unknown, fairly young person, and it was hard to gain trust and people were understandably suspicious of me. And, I think the first day I was there, that housekeeper was that environmental services person, now was a CNA. And she said, I remember she pointed to me and she said, you and I said yeah me. And, she teared up almost. And, I remember her sort of spreading to people around her that she knew me and that we could, they could trust me because she knew me long time ago and I was one of the few people who was really respectful and kind to her when many years prior to that. And you know, I think that's very important in life. It's very helpful. It just feels good. And it can really enhance relationships in the future. And then when you get to be, now I'm 40 so when you get to be in your later thirties and early forties what I'm seeing is all those little seeds that you planted in your teens, in your 20s and your thirties, they start growing suddenly. You don't even realize what you planted until all these things start growing and coming out of nowhere and you think, oh my gosh, this is from that thing that I did or didn't do in my youth. And I'm either grateful or not grateful that I chose to act that way. So yeah, I just like went on a little rabbit trail again. So feel free to loop me, right?
Naseema McElroy: 00:52:27 No, no, no girl. I love it because it's so real. It's so real. And it's exactly what people need to hear because sometimes we feel like we're not making an impact or like we're not being seen. But the things that you are doing today are, are those seeds.I love that analogy. You're planting seeds right now and baby when they have some, it's incredible.
Lynn Frair: 00:53:05 Something that I noticed. So, I was in my mid thirties and in healthcare leadership, fairly young for healthcare leadership, at least in our area. And, all of a sudden, people started going to me as the resource or that person to consult with or maybe come over to our hospital or division and show us what you're doing. And, and it was like, I woke up one day and I thought, oh my gosh, I've always kind of felt like I knew what I was doing, you know, relatively. And all of a sudden everybody seems to see that. And I don't know when this happened, but it was literally, you know, decades in the making, but at the same time overnight where it's like, oh my gosh, my, all these, all these literal seeds, they're just suddenly are trees and everybody sees this potential or sees these skills or this kindness or whatever it was that they were seeing because those seeds that were planted so long ago were nurtured along the way and not even, you don't even need to know how they're going to grow in the future. You just, you keep doing it. And some will, some seeds will just roll into the gutter and that's okay. And then, and that's okay because you aren't necessarily doing it so that you get something from it. But the side effect is that that tends to happen in the right time, I believe in the right time it's meant to.
Naseema McElroy: 00:54:41 That's right. So you guys, keep planting seeds.
Lynn Frair: 00:54:46 We're literally planting seeds. I think we're growing beans right now. My husband's a gardener. Oh, that's another thing. I'm not good at gardening. No.
Naseema McElroy: 00:54:54 Oh my God. I love, I love all the plants. I have no green thumb.
Lynn Frair: 00:54:59 We're connected again. I took a biology degree, not such a good gardener. It's just a shame. I can keep humans alive better. But my husband's really good at gardening, so it's good to, we call it aces in their places. So he does the gardening and he cooks and I do the dishes because I'm much better at that.
Naseema McElroy: 00:55:24 Love it. Love it. So you kind of sped us through. So, you're ICU nurse, you had the brain tumor, you recovered from that, then you went into, you got promoted to charge nurse, then you went into a managerial area. And, when did you transition hospice?
Lynn Frair: 00:55:43 About 10 years ago. So it was short. Well, for a while there I was multi-functional in home health palliative care and hospice, and on the administrative side, So there was some overlap there, but I'd say about a decade ago, and most of the last decade was serving primarily hospice.
Naseema McElroy: 00:56:10 Okay. So you worked in an administration like you're not...
Lynn Frair: 00:56:15 My roles were first in intake. I was looking for a role right after recovering from the brain tumor and administrative seemed like a really good fit for that time. I was having a lot of headaches and, but I still wanted to connect directly with patients even if it was over the phone. And so I did that. And, then got more curious about palliative care and hospice care again on the intake administrative side, and then I got promoted to charge nurse of the field. And I said, wait a minute, are you sure? You know, I actually interviewed for the job and I did not think I would get it because there were people who interviewed for the job. This is another maybe good nursing tip because there were people who had much more field experience than I did. And they offered me the job and I said to the director, I actually have to think about this. And she looked at me stunned and I said, I actually didn't think I would get it. So, I need to talk with my husband. So that was probably not a very bright thing to say necessarily, but it was honest, and I later asked, why did you choose me?
Naseema McElroy: 00:57:31 Actually that's like, yeah, that's like one of the things that they say, like when you're negotiating your salary, or when you're thinking about accepting a job, like, yeah I actually need to think to myself.
Lynn Frair: 00:57:45 I think it's a fair thing to say, in general, but I said it 'cause I was stunned, which I'm sure you could probably see on my face. So, I talked with my husband and I did accept the position and I later asked, why did you choose me? I mean, and they said something like, we chose you not because of the skills that you have but for your potential. And I thought, oh, I think they're a little out of their minds. But then after I... And plus I was young, so I was, Gosh, early thirties, and hospice nurses, at least where we are there, most of them are over that, that age. So I certainly was younger than average. So, yeah, so later, once I got into leadership I realized exactly what they were talking about. I think a wise hiring manager looks for potential rather than existing skills they look for fit as far as like, does this person have the potential to provide great care, work in a supportive environment?
Naseema McElroy: 00:58:56 Yeah, that's the word right there. Like, look for potential.
Lynn Frair: 00:59:01 Yeah, that's exactly it. So, I realized the wisdom of that later, a little bit later, but yeah, that, that was how that transition happened.
Naseema McElroy: 00:59:16 Nice. So now you're doing hospice nursing for all these years and then you're like, you know what, I've set myself up now. Now, I'm ready to leave and transition out.
Lynn Frair: 00:59:28 So, that's the transition period, which I really do recommend. So at the age of 37, at this point I was, so I had two girls, about 19 months apart from each other. And, my husband who's fantastic, had been a stay at home dad primarily for them. So at the age of 37, I'm in leadership and working a lot. I decided to scale back to part time and my part time role was seven on seven off. And because I had been there for a number of years, I had a lot of PTO. And so what that ended up being was almost 30 weeks off a year. So working about 22 weeks and having 30 weeks off. I'm overemphasizing because people said 13. That's amazing. No, three zero, weeks off a year. 13 is amazing too. Well, I think it's just sort of a stunning number, especially in the US. So I said I'm going to be working as an hourly nurse back in intake, which is where I began in hospice and people naturally assumed my husband would go back to work or start work. And I said, nope, he's going to continue to be with the pumpkins. And, and then that's when the questions started, you know, 'cause I'm 37 and we live in a high cost of living area. We have a couple of girls. It's just the math didn't make sense for most people. So that's when I found out somebody compared me to Mr Money Mustache, the blogger. And so, I started googling and looking up what that meant and we have some similarities, but we're pretty different. But the basic principle of saving and investing a decent portion of your income, that part is very similar. So, after I left that administrative job, I started learning more about the FIRE movement, realizing there's this whole movement of people doing what I've been doing for a long time and I need to find out about these people and join forces and inspire and also learn from and be inspired. So that's what I did. So that started at 37 and then at the age of 39. So, I worked part time for a couple of years, which I recommend as you're transitioning and phasing out of traditional employment. Then I'm at the age of 39, in August of 2018, I let my employer know that I would be taking a mini retirement or sabbatical or I would be leavin essentially. I did offer to stay per diem, but I was so darn picky about what I wanted to do per diem. I'm just making sums up really. And, I knew they didn't have probably the flexibility to design a job for me, nor did I really expect them to. But I said, this is the way that I would be able to stay with you guys, doing these audits that I love, which is so Geeky, but I love it. They just didn't have that and I knew that was a good possibility. And I said, okay, well I will be, my last day will be in January. And then I left, in this past January. So it's May now or I don't know when this will air, but it's been many, many months. And I absolutely love it. I thought I might really miss nursing. I think I get so much fulfillment by working with people, by working with our church, by working, you know, seeing the kiddos and traveling that I haven't had too much of a chance to be somber about the transition. It's really been wonderful. And I think when you have the ability to design your life in a certain way and you see other people who want the same for their lives, it's very hard to say, you know, I'm just going to live this life over here. You know, I'm not going to help you achieve your goals. I just, I didn't like the thought of that, honestly. And it brings me a lot of fulfillment to help others. So, that's how it's kind of evolved that way.
Naseema McElroy: 01:03:54 I love it. And you're such an inspiration, Lynn, and I think like people hearing this, even if they're not a nurse would be like, wow, just her ability to just navigate through the world of nursing and then be able to come out on top is phenomenal. And I know you'll inspire a lot of people to even think about going into nursing and even new nurses to kind of pursue a similar path. What advice would you give new nurses or people thinking about going into nursing?
Lynn Frair: 01:04:29 So first of all, I think you should go into nursing if you think that you'll love nursing. You should not go into it with this idea that the financial piece is a motivator. Yeah, the work is hard. It's very emotional. It is not always valued. The nurses that I know, they're very, very, very bright individuals and I see it in the clinical setting that that intelligence is not always valued and that is very difficult for to watch. You have to have an internal strength I think. Now, often they're very respected, but there's some pros and some cons. So be very clear about, you know, this is the career that you think you want. And once you're there, there's so many wonderful plus sides. The flexibility. So for nurses, my suggestion would be to always try to keep learning, always try to grow and expand your skills. Be multifunctional. I loved being multifunctional, just, I just love understanding and knowing many different roles. And that also forms as a job security and an easy transition if you get restless. Also, 401K or whatever your retirement plan, if your employer has a match, that getting that started just as soon as you can, if it seems like a small thing at first that compounds over time and I'm making some presumptions, so, if people have really high interest rate debt, like, you know, credit card debt or something like a payday loan, you would probably want to pay those off first, you know, so I can't give individual recommendations right now, but that broadly, most folks should consider contributing to their retirement plan, at least to the point of the employer match. And if you get started, as soon as you get hired, you're going to be miles ahead of most people around you. And you're going to appreciate that in the future.
Naseema McElroy: 01:06:45 Definitely. And also, um, I love a lot of nurses are similar to me, work at an organization where we not only have a 403B, but we have a 457 which is deferred comp.
Lynn Frair: 01:06:57 I wanted to talk to you about 457B. So, this was like Christmas, so this is embarrassing to admit. I, after I left work, I didn't realize the 457B. So of course, you know, check with your accountants and everything, but I called Fidelity and it depends on your employer specifications and some other things. But in general, 457B can often be withdrawn without that 10% penalty for those under standard retirement age. So that, yup. So that's [inaudible] talked about for nurses, I've heard it talked about for military. Have you seen that? And, the teachers but not for nurses. [Naseema says "No, I haven't. No. That's why..."] I know I thought, why is nobody talking about this for nurses? This is for those who are interested in early retirement or pursuing early retirement...
Naseema McElroy: 01:07:57 Or people like me who live in a high cost of living area that want lower your tax bracket, figure out how to optimize your taxes. It gives you a whole another lever to pull in that regard.
Lynn Frair: 01:08:12 Well, of course, the traditional use for it, which is to save for standard retirement, too. You know, I don't want to forget that. That really is why that's there. But it has a plus side of not having that most standard retirement plans as you know, Naseema, have that 10% early withdrawal penalty and this is a rare exception to that. So it's really, I actually didn't realize I had a 457B that would do that until after I left. And it was like a surprise. [Naseema asks "Did you contribute to it or not?"] I didn't know. I didn't know it was, you know, and I've been paying attention to all this. I assumed that there would be the 10% penalty. So this was like a very nice surprise that I just found out because I had heard of 457B's. I just assumed my type of plan was not the same type as the military or teachers, which I had always heard about. But if you work for a government organization as a nurse, like a nonprofit or like a community hospital, you may have access to this. Yeah. And a lot do.
Naseema McElroy: 01:09:27 Yeah. So a lot of us do and a lot of people just don't know. So let me just briefly explain what a 457 is, It is deferred compensation. So basically you're deferring, that's what it means. You're deferring your compensation, so you're deferring a portion of your income, and it's put, it's kind of, it's invested kind of the same way, just your retirement account, your retirement funds are. The bonus to this is that you get to put aside the same amount that you get to put aside for your 401K or 403B. So, if you're able to put $19,000 this year, you're also able to put $19,000 into your deferred comp plan. So, and that is taken off of your taxable income so that automatically if you were to fully fund both of those, then that's $38,000 knocked off of your tax bracket. And that means a world of difference to us, especially in the bay area or nurses that have higher incomes just in general. It can make a big difference because oftentimes most nurses that I know because of our incomes have some tax issues. Most nurses that I work with that's like their number one struggle. They're owing the IRS on a payment plan with the IRS, because of not to optimizing their taxes. And so that's one of the really, really strong levers that you can pull if you qualify for it. And I would just always advise you to reach out to whoever is there administrator of your retirement plan and they have all that information. And you guys, nurses, please don't be afraid to talk to these people. I just want to say like yeah, that's my advice. Please talk to the people who run your retirement plans. Make time to sit down and talk to them sooner or later, like Monday.
Lynn Frair: 01:11:41 Naseema, I do have to tell you that I called Fidelity who was my administrator when I was employed and I asked about the 457. I said, I have researched this extensively. I couldn't believe it. I'm like, is this really true for my plan as well? And they said, nope, nope, there'll be a 10% penalty. And I said, Oh, let me make sure you're understanding. I'm asking about the 457B not my 401K. Oh, hold on. And then they had to transfer me to another department and then I got that. So that's what's so tricky is. The people who answer the general phone number, I found really great general advice, but when it starts to get specific, that's why I think that's why it's good to have a community of nurses who are financially smart honestly. So we can crowd source that.
Naseema McElroy: 01:12:35 That's right. That is why we are here. That is why we are here. And, I think it takes a lot of the intimidation and the fear out of a lot of this stuff that, I mean because that's what I hear from nurses is that they just don't know. And like, you know, for my HR department, like there's this, this big husky guy that runs the retirement plan and he, you know, has a allow booming voice and he can kind of say things that are kind of condescending and people just won't invest because they don't want to deal with him. And that's not okay you guys. This is your future. And actually he's a really nice guy. He actually is a really nice guy, but you kind of do have to come with a base of knowledge. And this is where people get in trouble because I think that like, I just had a conversation, one of my coworkers last night, she was just like, I just want to hand some money, my money and let them do everything. No you can't, you have to have a basic level of understanding of where your money is going and what you want done with it. Or people are going to do what they want to do with it. And it's not gonna be in your best interest always. So we have to build up an understanding. It doesn't have to be Phd level like this is, these are some really basic things. But if you know that you have a community that you can lean in, that you can trust in, that you can ask questions without the fear of judgment. I think that that's so powerful and that's why I think it's important that, and I think that's major, that people like you, Lynn, are sharing your story and you have your platform available. So I appreciate you so much for everything that you're doing. You're just a phenomenal person all the way around and I'm honored that I even, you know, have the opportunity to get to know you because I mean, wow, you just blow my mind with all the things that you've been able to create, all the things that you've been able to overcome and the potential that I just see for you. So I appreciate you so much and I thank you so much for just responding to me. Like, who is this girl reaching out to me? Like I mean, that's how I felt. I was just...
Lynn Frair: 01:15:00 No, I checked out your website and I so love it 'cause your website Financially Intentional, that is what I'm all about is. These are all decisions that we make every day and they all have different outcomes and you can take control of those outcomes with some intentionality. And that's what's so cool about it. And you can sort of question these assumptions that you have about the way you have to live your life or the things you have to buy or the things that you think bring value. You get to do that in life. But we just, we usually just go to the default because it just is easier. But if, if we take a little time to question our default mode, it just pays debit not to have like cheap, cheesy financial references, but it pays dividends over time. Oh Gosh. I'm sorry that was really bad. But it really does over time in really, really powerful ways. And you know, I feel it right now we're at the point where we just kind of are coasting, I guess you could call it. And I'm, I keep thinking I'm going to wake up and this is going to be like a dream and I'm going to have the alarm going off. And in fact my daughter, I had to set an alarm the other day and she's like, what's wrong? Are we having a fire? And because she forgot, she forgot. I said, no honey, that's the alarm clock 'cause we haven't had to set one in so long. So I keep thinking I'm going to wake up from this dream. And you know, certainly some bad things will happen in our life and bad things happen in everybody's life. But the fact that we can kind of pause and, you know, when I do my website, I don't have to set it up in a way that I don't want to because I get to choose. I mean that is just so cool. And I honestly would love that for everybody. We could create so many great things. We could solve a lot of problems if we have people who have the space to think intelligently and creatively about these solutions that we could have in the world. It's just pretty cool and inspiring to me.
Naseema McElroy: 01:17:11 I think that's awesome. And I think you just summed everything up so beautifully. But Lynn, I want you to share with us how we can get in contact with you further. I know everybody's going to be like, I have no Lynn too, she's going to be my BFF.
Lynn Frair: 01:17:26 Don't ask me to cook for you. Yeah. I turned to my husband when we met. I made one meal and he's like, wow, that was a nice try. And, yeah, but I do love working with finance and optimizing people's lives. And I am at Nurse Numbers, so nursenumbers.com. And, you can see I have free material there. So if you're a DIY person and you want to just see the best, what I think is some of the best content and read and research yourself. I've got a, uh, what I think is a nice section there. And if you are somebody who would like to schedule one on one time that's also available through the website, I do sometimes have quite a wait. But it's still, you know, I respond to everybody, and I just love doing that type of work with folks.
Naseema McElroy: 01:18:29 And definitely all the links will be in the show notes. So, if you're driving on the road, don't worry about trying to stop and rush to write that down. It'll be in the show notes. Lynn, I just want to thank you so much for taking some of your precious time to spend with me.
Lynn Frair: 01:18:46 That is a compliment because I am kind of Fussy and I did want to spend time with you. Yeah, I do. I think this is so wonderful that you're starting a podcast for this. We can bring nurses together, we can support each other. We're very good at supporting patients and if we can come together to support each other and create and design the lives that we love, I mean, I think that's an absolutely beautiful thing.
Naseema McElroy: 01:19:15 Yes, yes. That is what it's all about. Again. Thank you, Lynn. I'm gonna let you go now, but we will definitely be in touch and this is not the last time you guys are going to hear from Lynn.
Lynn Frair: 01:19:27 Alright, Naseema. Take care.
Naseema McElroy: 01:19:30 Okay.
